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 • I don't like where you're going, but I like the way you're getting there

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 • I don't like where you're going, but I like the way you're getting there

Posted by youngmarxist at 2006-10-29 09:28 PM
Stop Me Before I Vote Again seems mostly to be pretty standard pseudo-left stuff - Iraq is a quagmire, global warming will destroy us all, etc etc, which would would not make it very interesting to regular readers of Last Superpower.

But what is interesting is that the site is "Dedicated to the Destruction of the Democratic Party". SMBIVA's main author appears to be a Green who insists that Green politics won't come into their own until Greens in the USA stop automatically supporting the Democrats - he is 'opposing the Democrats from the psuedo-left'.

This raises the question of what we would do in the equivalent situation here - a Green/ALP fight that the Greens had a chance of winning.

Should we support the Green, despite the reactionary politics, as a means of hurting the ALP?

Or would we prop up the ALP, so that a leftist more of our views would fill the gap, instead of letting a Green get entrenched?
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 • Re: I don't like where you're going, but I like the way you're getting there

Posted by arthur at 2006-10-31 06:15 AM
I think this is likely to be a live issue in US over next couple of years when Democrats split over Iraq. Assuming most of their representatives fold, large section of their anti-war base is likely to be opposed to both major pro-war parties at subsequent election but unlikely to displace official Democrats as the second major party and thus essentially playhing a "spoiler" role similar to Perot with Republicans.


But I don't see this resulting in anything more than deepening apathy and disillusionment in short term. Plus growing pseudo-insurrectionary hysteria when the only result of this is to return the Republicans.


In Australia it looks to me like just deepening apathy without any intervening stage. Haven't seen much sign of Greens wanting to fight ALP (as opposed to whining about ALP giving preferences to Christian Right). Principled position for both seems to me to simply support opening out the political system so that all tendencies are properly represented and can demonstrate their political bankruptcy more clearly.


In the continuing absence of a positive program I suspect all we can do is point out the absurdity of the programs of other tendencies. At some point both we ourselves and others who are currently apathetic must end up so fed up with the nonsense that we start trying to talk sense ourselves. BTW I think really getting to grips with the arguments quicksilverhg is putting in the post-capitalism  thread would be useful towards understanding why we currently don't have a positive program. Too preoccupied to do it myself at the moment but I'd strongly recommend tackling it to others not in my situation. There are serious issues involved that should be taken seriously.
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 • Re: I don't like where you're going, but I like the way you're getting there

Posted by youngmarxist at 2006-10-31 06:52 AM
Yes, I have about half-thought through an answer to the latest points from quiksilverhq in that thread. Irritatingly enough, my wage-slavery has dominated my time for the last ten weeks or so, so this is moving very slowly.

But it strikes me that one of the obstacles to a positive program is that we don't have a firm grasp yet on just HOW society will be changed in the first 25 years or so of a socialist regime.

I am currently wrestling with the idea that the vast majority of people won't become 'better'   people - they won't think communally, they won't particularly feel like working for 'the people' and so on.


So any ideas for socialist transformation will need to discuss how we use people's desire for material gain, their pride, and their centredness on themselves, friends and families, to drive society towards the massive productivity gains that communism will need.

As far as Greens taking on the ALP, Greens in Qld are actively trying to encourage a 'just vote one' strategy using optional preferential voting in State and local council elections, which in effect denies support to the ALP, and is easier to sell to Green voters than a direct preference for the Coalition.

I understand Greens are in striking distance of the ALP in inner Melbourne and Sydney seats.
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