Arbil and Yenan.
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COMMENT #7 [link]
...patrickm said on
A major issue that immediately faces anti-racist activists, world-wide, is what stance to take on the ‘new’ war in
Who the political representatives of the Iraqi masses are has now been conclusively established. It is now clear that the political leadership is not considered by the vast majority to be ‘collaborators’ or any other such term of abuse.
Twelve odd millions of the Iraqi peoples’ have just voted in an undisputed, free and fair election process ending in all important proportional representation. These political representatives do speak for their constituents, be they Kurds, Arabs (either Shia or Sunni), Turkomen, Assyrians, or various Christians and atheists. The various peoples’ have voted under a constitution that they approved, and that has established the formal equality of all the peoples’, and both sexes, before the law.
A legitimate Iraqi government will now be established after protracted negotiations between these legitimate political representatives and it is a foregone conclusion (for those of us who know what stance the major parties are taking) that this government will call for continued military and economic assistance.
Local and foreign racists and sectarians of the most vicious kinds from Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and so forth together with residual Baathists (with a shockingly racist history) are now going to wage their vicious racist war against the Iraqi peoples’ who are trying to build a country based on their non-racist constitution.
Anti-racist activists, irrespective of what our stance has been up-to-date, now have to come to terms with the new reality. It is as profound a turnaround for some as was the ending of the America First movement after
COMMENT #8 [link]
...Brad said on
Uh...PatrickM, are you reading/listening to the same news I am about the elections in
COMMENT #9 [link]
...Arry said on
#7 - Don't you wish. Sheessh.
COMMENT #10 [link]
...Patrickm said on
Yes we are all seeing the same News.
You know that the Iraqi peoples' have had three elections in this year, ending in a very good result for them. So I take it you agree that as America First collapsed with the attack on
Your problem is that you are blind to the real reason the
Bush is no lefty because he is waging this war in the interests of his class, and it is only incidentally in the interests of the oppressed peoples’ in the
If you want to think more about the type of issues that I am bringing up then go to
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/
and have a look at the Draining the swamp thread in the forum, or democracy was intended for
COMMENT #11 [link]
...Brad said on
What flavor was it, PatrickM? Cherry or Grape?
More on your so-called "Democracy" in another post either later today or tomorrow.
But I'm sorry to hear you've entrusted a coward like Bush to be your protector from the terrorist pussies. You can go cower in a bunker along with him.
COMMENT #12 [link]
...Catherine a said on
PatrickM
You might find www.juancole.com to be a useful source of information on
COMMENT #13 [link]
...Patrickm said on
I am making very specific claims. In responce I am reading generalities. This is a sign than the debate on the issue of
Catherine; do not dodge the debate about the collapse of what is left of the 'peace' movement. I do not believe that you have adressed anything I have said. I therefor conclude that you do not give a shit about the Iraqi people. I do and that is why I support them 100% They are entitled to full support from anti racist forces around the world.
Naturally they get no help from the pseudo left.
COMMENT #14 [link]
...bvac said on
He asked the big questions that had to be asked, after 9/11.
Do people really still think that George has been calling the shots since 9/11? The guy hasn't a clue what's going on, and probably still believes the liberation crap that his closest advisers and cabinet members have been feeding him.
After being brought to war through falsehoods and manipulation, any resulting democracy will be built on a shaky foundation of lies. Because of the illegality of this war, nothing else matters. Nothing.
COMMENT #15 [link]
...bvac said on
P.S. The debate between Hitchens and Galloway left me with a lower opinion of both of them. If theres anyone that can properly debate Hitchen's idiotic rantings, Ritter is the one. I saw him on Booknotes and he speaks clearly and with authority.
Anyone know if the audio is available anywhere?
COMMENT #16 [link]
...Patrickm said on
Of cause the war was 'illegal' laws are created by revolutions revolutions are not created by laws. Saddam was the lawfull Tyrant of Iraq and overthrowing tyranny is illegal, as is every revolution until that revoltion establishes its law. The UN now recognises the Iraqi government that is trying the Tyrant Saddam!
just try and deal with comment 7 as your history lesson about how the US ruling class had to be tricked into a war of liberation with lies is not relevant for anti racist forces who have to deal with the current realities anyway.
The situation is now one of complete collapse because we are dealing with a new war!! So get behind the masses of the brave Iraqi people that turned out to vote for political representation and deal with those rps in a respectful non racists manner.
COMMENT #17 [link]
...Doug Eldritch said on
Des-
I finally figured out that these conservatives were NOT EVER CONSERVATIVE and this is why Bremer, Snowcroft, and all the other conservatives were so furious with them.
All these neocons who are behind all this bullshit, and behind all "democracy flaming
The reason they try to teach everyone to hate liberals is because they are liberals, self-hating neoliberal losers who like to stir up shit.
From PNAC to Wall Street, these creeps destroyed the conservative movement, lied to everybody & then tried to blame it all on the scapegoat: IE, neo-nazi liberals as they call them. (Aka: themselves!)
Doug E.
COMMENT #18 [link]
...Patrickm said on
review comment 7 and deal with the reality that all anti racists are now facing; or point out the error in my logic.
COMMENT #19 [link]
...Doug Eldritch said on
Sorry patrick, but you're wrong all the way around.
There was massive fraud in the Iraqi elections, and the Shiite majority aka the allies of the Neocon Zionists now control Iraq:
Iraqi court disqualifies prominent Sunni candidates
Knight Ridder Newspapers
BAGHDAD, Iraq - An Iraqi court has ruled that some of the most prominent Sunni Muslims who were elected to parliament last week won't be allowed to serve because officials suspect that they were high-ranking members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party.
Knight Ridder has obtained a copy of the court ruling, which has yet to be circulated to the public.
The ruling is likely to dampen Bush administration hopes that the election would bring more of the disaffected Sunni minority into
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/world/13476408.htm
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LON429690.htm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051223/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
What you call freedom or liberty, I call the rape of the natural world. These "liberal" loonies destroyed other countries with the pretense of building free liberty, and the conservatives have said since the get-go they should be marched to
Doug E.
COMMENT #20 [link]
...bvac said on
Clarification of #14: Illegal by
PatrickM, a question or two. Do you find anything inherently racist about inflicting 30,000+ civilian casualties in
COMMENT #21 [link]
...Patrickm said on
You are avoiding the fact that the Kurds (about 20%) and the Shia (about 60%) used to be under the rule of the racist Arab Sunni tyranny. That is 80% of the Iraqi population let alone the democratically minded Sunni Arabs who have been liberated.
There is no other way to win the so called war on terror than to spread bourgeois democracy across the whole planet. Doing things in the old way, that is, since ww2, spreading repression and terror throughout the world is what has failed and those old discredited policies have to be junked like the garbage they are and always were.
Pretending that millions of Iraqis are not bravely voting and electing legitimate political representatives is a racist joke. This voting is happening.
And to not notice that the Zionists are being defeated and withdrawing from
You don’t give a toss about democracy or liberation or the
But understand this; it is all being done because it is the only way to defeat the enemy of all modernity that dramatically came to your attention as of 9/11.
The swamp that breeds the mosquitoes must be drained, and the old
We are not going to just keep killing an endless stream of mosquitoes for ever as people that cannot think strategically would have us do. Nor are we going to pretend that these mosquitoes do not need destroying. They do!!
COMMENT #22 [link]
...bvac said on
sigh. i'll let someone else deal with this one.
COMMENT #23 [link]
...dolphin said on
When the occupying forces (
Also, I heard that the Iraqis were forced to vote, or would lose their food etc rations if they didn't.
Isn't spreading democracy fun...
COMMENT #24 [link]
...Doug Eldritch said on
Patrick, no. You are a fool. This is not about the god damn "Bin Ladens of 9-11" and Bin-Laden DID NOT DO 9-11 either so we have no reason to be in either
This is about the war between the very Zionists you claim are not "repressive" and the Arabs themselves, the Sunni Arabs lived in peace for hundreds of years out there and it is a proven fact that they got along with their fellow people.
The Muslims have been persecuted all their lives by Jewish Tyrants, Turkish madmen and thousands of other events you can't begin to understand. The only reason they resorted to terror was to keep these mad-men out of their lands.
Further, it is absolutely clear who really did 9-11 and the truth will come out.
Congressman forced to resign after criticizing the Zionist Neocons who wanted war with Iraq, Syria
Conspiracy for Israel expansion, before 9-11 & beyond
Zionist Neocons had planned & drawn up expansion of "Greater Israel" for war with Iran, Syria, Iraq years in advance.
Plan was already officially crafted: "Securing the Realm" long before Al-Quaeda was dreamed up.....all the way back to the original Arab/Jewish war
When there is a full-fledged investigation of 9-11, and believe me this, there will be. We will see conclusively that the terrorists were within our own borders anyway, as they always were. And that Zionists from
At that point, hopefully once and for all they are dealt with. And the entire scam for Bin-Laden as well as everybody else is unraveled, so
Chew on it, Pat. The muslims will never stop their violence until the Zionists stop their land grabs.
Doug E.
COMMENT #25 [link]
...Doug Eldritch said on
Ahh bloody...
Here is the first link again about the congressman, not erased and still with the same words.
Israelis dancing story...
As you will be able to tell Pat, its obviously the most censored. And its also the most true.....when the full story is told there will be nobody who will deny it.
Doug E.
COMMENT #26 [link]
...Patrickm said on
I do not find anything inherently racist about inflicting 30,000+ civilian casualties in
‘How do you feel racism factors into the general ambivilence of the American people when confronted with these gruesome statistics?’ Most people are like you; they don’t like the war (war full stop) but they understand that tyranny does not vanish of its own accord.
Do you think the Iraqis' skin color and muslim religion affect the public opinion negatively in the States? Yes I do. For example people think that they are not ready for democracy or that Muslims cannot reform their religion. Whereas this is the lynch pin country for the entire region and will be the place that spreads democratic ‘poison’ to all its neighbors.
I can think of no reason, why international troops, should not have not been sent to liberate the people of
The left, aught to be demanding more intervention; not condemning the most successful war of liberation, by a major imperialist power, since VJ day. Instead the idiotic pseudo left, compare the Vietnam War, (where the
Then they talk of quagmire when victory is clearly within the grasp of the Iraqi peoples.
Only people who have not thought about what a revolution in the Middle East will require could think that these levels of casualties could be bettered by some other method of overthrowing Baathism and then standing up to the same types as oppressed the Afghan peoples and delivered the world 9/11. Industrialized democracies now have one more ally and a dangerous enemy dispatched.
'Where is your argument that the
'Also, I heard that the Iraqis were forced to vote, or would lose their food etc rations if they didn't.' You heard this type of drivel for the very good reason that loons spread the notion that Zionists in the U.S organised 9/11. They have to spread somthing, otherwise they would be back to dealing with issues like I have outlined in comment 7; and that is something that they cannot do.
'Isn't spreading democracy fun'
Well we live in the era when Nations want Liberation Countries want Independence and the People want Revolution, anyone that stands against these trends will be pushing shit up hill; thus the settlements are being abandoned in Gaza and parts of the West Bank while some loons think that this is a sign that The Zionists are on the offensive, presumably as they were on the offensive as they were thrown out of Lebanon.
Zionist in the case of Doug Eldritch is is just code word for Jew. Doug Eldritch ought to be denounced on this site for what he is, a garden variety racist.
COMMENT #27 [link]
...Doug Eldritch said on
Oh right Patrick, no your ad-hominem attacks won't work worth anything.
Thousands of Jews are against Zionism, and Jews do not equate with Zionists.
Israel of today attacks anyone with a different view than its own, including "Steven Spielberg." I suppose Steven Spielberg is a self-hating Jew also?
Your BS won't work anymore. Nationalism of any sort is plain wrong, including Jewish or Arab nationalism. In fact, it is so wrong that they are the REAL racists and that's why you can't defend this vote.
You are condoning racism by backing up the likes of Paul Wolfowitz and any of his generals, which have killed over 30,000 Arabs across
You are also making sure that racism continues even worse, when you call on the Sunni Arabs to be secularized.
That is not just criminal, but racist, and if you want to see
I dare say the real reason is because you have no exscuse; these wars are all completely WRONG and the Arab Muslims will NEVER accept the Zionists- they need to simply seperate the countries there and punish the criminals responsible.
I have to say that will never happen if they continue to blow eachother up, and that is exactly what these Zionist neocons have been doing.
Doug E.
COMMENT #28 [link]
...dolphin said on
PatrickM.
I feel sorry for you. You compare WWII to the illigal War in
You are a bitter person....You and your PNAC friends look at the world through a straw. You need to open your eyes and see what we have done to
In five years, we are the terror, yes, I said terror of the world.
We have weapons of mass destruction, we meddle in governments that we should not and we are the only country that has used the bomb.
Please write your PNAC crap somewhere else.
By the way, Happy Holidays
COMMENT #29 [link]
...Jose Chung said on
1) Scott Ritter: "This is a war that's not worth the life of one American because it's a war based on a lie."
Comment: Is he parroting Mother Sheehan or Barbra Streisand here? Christopher Hitchens must have been squirming in his seat. I had no idea Brother Ritter was so articulate and imaginative. This is debating, par excellence! This war was based on a lie? I've never heard it put that way? This is truly a new and fresh way of looking at it. Let me understand his logic here: And so, because this war was based on a lie, no American 's life was worth it? That's pretty deep, when you think about it.
Question: What if the war was not based on a lie, would it have been worth fighting? What if the Civil War was based on a lie? Or World War II? Would that make those wars not worth a single American life? Or what if the
Isn't it all a moot point anyway, why and how we went into
COMMENT #30 [link]
...Soul Rebel said on
Jose. Your comments are too stupid to even reply to.
COMMENT #31 [link]
...yank had enuf said on
#29 Goering couldn't have said it better.
COMMENT #32 [link]
...bvac said on
#26,
Have you read The Pentagon's New Map?
COMMENT #33 [link]
...Dave Kees said on
Patrickm, are you familiar with
COMMENT #34 [link]
...Arry said on
Personally, I don't have the time or inclination to set PatrickM straight, but I do have to say his theory is one of the most sublime examples of pure malarky I've seen on Brad Blog (and I've seen plenty of trollic BS). I'll have to give it that. It has taken awhile to dawn on me that it is not a put-on.
The main thing that characterizes it is what it leaves out (following George's misleading lead in the "war on terrorism".) Beyond the important things mentioned by other posters, here are just a few things that Patrick might want to look into:
--- PNAC
--- "Lies of George W. Bush"
--- Neocon concept of democracy
--- Energy policy of the Bush administration
--- Mideast oil production
--- UNOCAL pipeline
--- USA"PATRIOT" Act
--- nature of democracy
--- "the captive public" and trappings of democracy
--- cynical uses of nominal (as opposed to real) democracy
--- corporatization and democracy
--- corporatization/diversity/homogenization (and the effective similiarities with racism and classism)
--- corporate self-interest
--- United States world terrorism
--- nature of fascism
--- plutocracy
--- fair elections
--- modern political marketing
--- nature and methods of propaganda
--- WTO/debt/privatization
--- Peak Oil
If he researches these subjects and still believes that "terrorism" and "democracy" in their shallowest forms as defined by the neocon pr machine for use in attaining goals are what are driving today's events, then he'll have to repeat class.
The world is an anti-democratic corporate (short-term) playground fueled by self-interest. Terrorism is naturally in the mix, and, in fact is a useful propaganda tool used ad nauseum by the neocons. The biggest mistake people can make is to trust in grand strategic designs because they never consider enough factors to be valid and are monolithic in one degree or another. PatrickM's is really not a good example because it ignores almost everything that matters practically, but it is true in all cases.
If a revolution occurs, it won't be a Tom Friedman fantasy, which is what Patrick's is in rough form. (Brad is the good Friedman.:) ) It will be a revolution from the knowledge of personal worth, sovereignty, and work - and it is happening world wide and it is militant. GWB represents a last, decadent, feverish, fearful manifestation of post WWII "globalization" which always had fascist tendencies. Those tendencies are just showing themselves now particularly because there is nowhere else to go in that worn-out paradigm.
My opinion anyway.
Wishing Brad and all my friends at Brad Blog (whatever religion, non-religion, or persuasion) a wonderful Christmas day tomorrow. And will 2006 be a good year or what?
--Arry
COMMENT #35 [link]
...bvac said on
What if the Civil War was based on a lie? Or World War II? Would that make those wars not worth a single American life?
World War II was based on a lie. Among other things, it was based on Hitler's lies and propaganda about jews. In that regard, the Nazis who had no problem carrying out what they saw as their manifest destiny were deservedly smashed by the allied forces. A lot of germans had no choice but to fight in the wermacht though, and even the pope was in the nazi youth by force. Those are people who died for a war based on lies and greed.
-
created only the second democracy in the Middle East
Tell me straight up, if Iraq turns out to be an islamic republic run by clerics campaigning on anti-americanism, was all of this nonsense worth it?
-
It is over, you know?
1st Lt. Benjamin T. Britt, 24, of Wheeler,
Spc. William Lopez-Feliciano, 33, of Quebradillas,
The latest ones to die for your agenda. It is over for them, but we owe it to them to come to grips with the reality of why we went to war.
-
But it is worth noting that the
I haven't seen any so-called peace activist say anything to this effect. Show me what you got.
-
Then they talk of quagmire when victory is clearly within the grasp of the Iraqi peoples.
Define 'victory' in the operational sense, in as much detail as you can.
-
There is no other way to win the so called war on terror than to spread bourgeois democracy across the whole planet.
Prominent military leaders, analysts, and intellectuals happen to disagree with you.
Forcing democracy down the barrel of a gun is tough to do, at around $400 billion a pop.
-
Doing things in the old way, that is, since ww2, spreading repression and terror throughout the world is what has failed and those old discredited policies have to be junked like the garbage they are and always were.
Describe these policies of spreading repression and terror, who was behind them, what the alternatives were, and why they failed. In as much detail as you can.
-
Pretending that millions of Iraqis are not bravely voting and electing legitimate political representatives is a racist joke. This voting is happening.
They sure are brave. What is becoming clear though is that the elections are not legitimate. Election fraud, candidates being pre-screened by the
COMMENT #36 [link]
...Robert Lockwood Mills said on
In order to disagree with Ritter one must find merit in the following premise, which fairly sums up the position of Hitchens and the neo-cons:
"It is worth brutalizing a sovereign country that posed no threat to us, likewise worth the loss of thousands of American lives and tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, in order to remove a brutal dictator from power, one who was only brutal to his own people, and/or to find weapons of mass destruction that never existed, and/or to bring Western-style democracy to a land that has never known it, can't assimilate it, and wants more than anything else for our so-called liberating troops to leave at once."
COMMENT #37 [link]
...Floridiot said on
IMO, The Iraq invasion reminds me of a cop going to a domestic assault call, you know, one partner calls, the cops show up, both partners turn against the cops
Thats what I think is going to happen there
in just a matter of time, we just let the proverbial genie out of the bottle, thats all, this will end up being a theocracy, controlled by Iran
With bases there, they (Bilderburgers, et al) can keep the shit stirred up, leaving Big oil free to pillage their resources
But I digress....
COMMENT #38 [link]
...Jose Chung said on
1) What if the Civil War was based on a lie? Or World War II? Would that make those wars not worth a single American life?
bvac, you dodged the question. You agreed with the premise (in an upside down way) but you avoided answering: Was fighting World War II worth one American life?
The ball is in your court.
COMMENT #39 [link]
...Jose Chung said on
Soul Rebel said: Jose. Your comments are too stupid to even reply to.
Comment: This is an example of an all too typical Liberal response when they find themselves confused.
yank had enuf said: #29 Goering couldn't have said it better.
Comment: This is either an attempt at wit, or a grade-school smear. But it is so so typical (and boringly so) of Liberals to make Nazi references when talking about fellow Americans who they disagree with. After all, Conservatives ARE evil, right, so it's an apt description?
However, I would posit that the irony is completely and embarrassingly lost on a poster like yank had euf, and I'll tell you why. It is the Conservatives who are fighting today's version of the Nazi--the Islamo-fascist, who, in some ways, is worse than a Nazi because a Nazi wanted to live, while it is those on the Left who hate the Right for fighting this modern-day Nazi, this evil.
COMMENT #40 [link]
...Catherine a said on
Jose and PatrickM,
I refer you both to www.juancole.com
He is from a military family and has views which are informed by knowledge of Middle Eastern cultures, religions, languages and histories--rather than from either a liberal or conservative Western-dominated perspective. You would both do well to learn more before pronoucing your opinion about what is best for Iraqis. Have you gone over and asked any Iraqis what they would like?
Your arguments (e.g. comparisons to WWII and comments about "liberals") reveal relatively little understanding of Iraqi perspectives, which are significantly different from Western ones.
Iraqi loyalties are profoundly tribal in nature, which is one reason the
It is inappropriate to speak of the recent Iraqi election as free and fair. A country under occupation is not in a position to hold elections untainted by external influence. Especially in circumstances in which security is so poor that people must risk life and limb to buy food, let alone vote.
Iraqis need to find a political structure and leaders that suits them, not ones that the West thinks they ought to have. They deserve time and independence to solve their own problems on their own terms.
COMMENT #41 [link]
...Robert Lockwood Mills said on
For Catherine A.: You make a key point about labels. "Liberal" is a negative buzzword used by domestic RIGHT-WINGERS (as distinct from real conservatives, who oppose liberals on issues but without personal rancor). It's the equivalent of "Commie" during the McCarthy era and "Pinko" during
An Iraqi would have no frame of reference for the word, no matter what his branch of Islam or his politics. He doesn't relate to left-wing vs. right-wing,
let alone false labels used by each to discredit the other. An Sunni Muslim relates to a Shiite Muslim. A follower of cleric A relates to a follower of cleric B.
As you say, it's tribal, not political in our context.
For defenders of the Bush policy to decry opponents
as "liberals" isn't merely insulting, it's stupid, and irrelevant to what
COMMENT #42 [link]
...Catherine a said on
I wouldn't say it's stupid, it's just uninformed. No point bashing anyone.
We each need to take responsbility for informing ourselves.
Both Jose and PatrickM will be better able to support the current administration and Iraqis if they do so from a standpoint that is better informed. The same is true for those with a different political viewpoint--they will be better able to propose appropriate alternative strategies if they are well informed about Iraqi realities.
Uninformed ideology serves no one, and particularly not the Iraqi people.
COMMENT #43 [link]
...bvac said on
bvac, you dodged the question. You agreed with the premise (in an upside down way) but you avoided answering: Was fighting World War II worth one American life?
I dodged nothing. Our entry into World War II was not based on a lie, and incidentally was legally declared by congress. The Germans were brought to war on Hitler's lies and propaganda, and therefore hundreds of thousands were fighting for something that was 'not worth it'. The ones who chose to participate in the upper ranks, the SS and so forth, probably did not care about this nuance, because they subscribe to the same ideology as Hitler did. Perhaps Robert Lockwood Mills can offer some insight into this, whether he agrees with my perspective or not.
Compared to our present situation, in which the
There, now you can respond to the rest of my post.
-
It is the Conservatives who are fighting today's version of the Nazi--the Islamo-fascist
In what way does invading a country ruled by a secular tyrant, destroying its infrastructure, holding elections where pro-western secular candidates were squashed by anti-american muslim clerics, all while violence continues to escalate, constitute "fighting Islamo-fascism"?
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who, in some ways, is worse than a Nazi
How many millions died because of Nazis, in how many years?
How many died because of "islamo-fascists" (a yet-to-be-defined term), in as many years?
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Trying to apply left-right politics to this argument is a losing proposition. What's at play here are forces far greater than any political party. What's at stake is far more than a fledgling democracy.
merry christmas!
COMMENT #44 [link]
...Arry said on
Yes, who are the "islamo-fascists"? Does it just mean "terrorists who are Muslims"? Does it mean "Muslims who are bad so we'll compare them with the Nazis and hope it works?" Is it appropriate to use the term "fascist" in this case? Gotta know what we are talking about.
COMMENT #45 [link]
...Soul Rebel said on
Jose, the only thing that confuses me is the mentality of people like you. On the issues at hand, I have clarity. I will second Catherine's suggestion to read www.juancole.com
Also, your labels mean nothing to me. Call me what you will.
COMMENT #46 [link]
...Robert Lockwood Mills said on
The pejorative term "liberal" has no resonance with Iraqis, and no relevance to the debate about our occupation of
Using labels to subdue opponents of a government policy is uninformed, yes. I argue it's also stupid in the current context because "liberal" pertains to American politics, and the people who matter here are Iraqis. The debate must be about their future, not ours. The word "liberal" makes no more sense to Iraqis than the words "Sunni" and "Shiite" do in reference to our politics.
COMMENT #47 [link]
...farang said on
Well, I am certain
Islamists"? Ask Irgun.
So, M.O. and Cui Bono? SOP of any basic police detective work.
But, back specifically to Hitchens: After watching Hitchens flat MAKE UP LIES about Juan Cole's Middle Eatern experience compared to his own during the debate, Ritter was shooting Drunken Fish in a barrel.
Hitchens has NO credibilty.
COMMENT #48 [link]
...Bob Bilse said on
How did this ignorant notion (that being a GWB detractor means you're a Liberal) get started? It's hardly the case. It's not even close to being the case. Disagreeing with the policies of this corporatist administration is not a sign of being a liberal. It's a sign of common sense.
My best friend Richard, a 68-year-old life-long Conservative Republican, and owner of one of the largest apartment complexes in Southern California, is a passionate Bush detractor, and will argue vehemently against any justification of this war. He lists Eisenhower, Ronald Reagan, Bush Sr., Nixon, S.I. Hiakawa, George Murphy, George Deukmejian, Pete Wilson, and, more recently, Arnold Schwarzenegger, as among Republicans he's voted for. In fact, the only time he hasn't voted Republican was when Bob Dole was the candidate ("the ecomomy was strong, and Dole was too old and mean"), and the two runs of George W. Bush.
Richard voted against GWB because he considered him unqualified for public office, and a prop/shill/front for The Texas oil magnates, and their ilk, along with Cheney being "The Halliburton Man". All that has happened has deeply strengthened this conviction in both of us.
You can fool yourself, if you wish, but it's sheer fantasy to think that only liberals think this president is not the man who should be holding the office, and that this war is a crime.
Just one example is Dwight D. Eisenhower's son. Pat Buchanan and George Will have also made some very strong protests to the way this administration represents conservative ideology.
Bush's list of non-liberal detractors is not a short one. There are many conservatives who state that this administration does not represent their idealogy at all.
This administration reflects, and practices, fascist/corporatist idealogy.
Halliburton's Stock has risen apx. $80 million since the
This administration is succeeding in what it set out to do, at the expense of you and I, Liberal, Moderate, and Conservative alike.
COMMENT #49 [link]
...Doug Eldritch said on
Patrick,
The fact that the Zionists did 9-11 may be a conspiracy "theory" for now but I promise you it will not be after all of the proof is seen.
My point is you are acting very racist against Arabs by promoting the "fight on terror" that you are here....anyone who calls for the extermination of an entire people, race, or religion is not a good person...there is more obvious and demanded ways to deal with racial war or mischief.
Including seperating the powers, & the extremist overlords from their people who they repress.
Doug E.
COMMENT #50 [link]
...Patrickm said on
I have found that many people who talk drivel about a Zionist involvement in 9/11 are anti Semites. If Doug Eldritch is just a conspiracy nut, rather than a racist conspiracy nut, so be it. But you aught to be told firmly that peddling idiotic theories about who planned and carried out 9/11 is not what is acceptable on grown up blogs.
BTW I do not apologize for Zionism see
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/docs/nzccontents
A number of questions have arisen most of which can be classed as avoidance;
--- PNAC What else would people who own and run any society do except make plans to continue to own and run things? But still the world changes and change is coming ready or not.
Ignore any ruling class plans for any new century for the moment and think about what is driving developments in the real world.
Consider how the last century started and ended. Whatever the plans of the British Ruling class were I can assure you the world did not turn out the way they thought. Neither will developments this century, but if the contenders for power in the ruling class did not make plans then they would be mad and they are not mad. Thus this war was planned by the ruling elite for some sound ruling class reason.
--- "Lies of George W. Bush"
The Bush war cabinet was working on strategy after 9/11; if people do not realize this they can not be taken seriously; and despite being at war with Islamists of the Taliban and AlQaeda varieties they decided to go to war with Baathism and destroy it. Whatever the reason was for the war we can be sure it was not from any immediate threat from WMD. But everybody including the French and German ruling class believed Saddam had some degree of WMD program that would be uncovered. So the lies that have been harmful to Bush and Co were chosen by mistake because the Bush war cabinet thought that some WMD’s would turn up. Nobody planned to be exposed as mistaken on WMD. Just the same as they blew it on the aircraft carrier with the mission accomplished idiocy. Just another blunder.
--- Neocon concept of democracy --- nature of democracy
--- "the captive public" and trappings of democracy
--- corporatization and democracy
--- cynical uses of nominal (as opposed to real) democracy
--- fair elections
--- plutocracy
--- modern political marketing
--- nature and methods of propaganda
It’s basically just bourgeois democracy, so get over it, humanity certainly will!
They run a class society so they look at it from their ruling class point of view and that’s to be expected. Meanwhile other classes that also descend from the Enlightenment will look at the problem posed by the political swamp that is the
--- Energy policy of the Bush administration
--- Mideast oil production
--- UNOCAL pipeline
--- WTO/debt/privatization
--- Peak Oil
No blood for oil blathering. Just think for a moment; do you believe that the Iraqi politicians, just elected by some 12 million voters, could produce a puppet Government that would go along with the
--- corporatization/diversity/homogenization (and the effective similiarities with racism and classism) --- corporate self-interest --- United States world terrorism --- USA "PATRIOT" Act
When you would like to make a sensible point I could deal with it; meanwhile readers can sing this tune,
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
Even though the sound of it
Is something quite atrocious
If you say it loud enough
You'll always sound precocious
…
He traveled all around the world
And everywhere he went
He'd use his word and all would say
"There goes a clever gent"
When Dukes and maharajas
Pass the time of day with me
I say me special word and then
They ask me out to tea
So when the cat has got your tongue
There's no need for dismay
Just summon up this crap
And then you've got a lot to say (not)
But better use it carefully
Or it could change your life
One night I said it to me girl
And now me girl's my wife!
No joke; no matter what the problem anywhere around the world, pseudo leftists and liberals can be found ramming a collection of words together rather than seeking truth from facts. Indeed it got so bad over the last 20 odd years, that we have the mumbo jumbo of post modernism that denies that facts are even there to be discovered or revealed from analysis and we can just pick and choose our own truth!!
--- nature of fascism
It is apparent that you would not know fascism if it jumped up and bit your arse. Ending 60 years of rotten to the core
Don’t hang your hat on distorted pieces of news about the election and pronounces on how the US Iraq project is defeated. Think laterally. Politics in
Democratically minded people in
Anti-war people ought to admit that there are progressive forces throughout the Middle- East and that they have very often been butchered under former
The abandoned policies led to the dead end that 9/11 pointed to. It’s always been my view that WMD is a very grave concern of the Bush war cabinet; not re
Some people, like the late Susan Sontag, think that terrorism will always be with us; therefore, this war is an endless undertaking. They should watch, ‘Gone with the Wind’, and think about slavery. I think that when the entire world has system’s-of-government like those to be found currently in the industrialized west, then such a war would be finished. So, perhaps it may last in one way or another for the next thirty years’, or more. Who can say? Whatever time it takes, would not alter the need to fight it, nor the requirement to adopt a strategy capable of leading to victory. But this stage in
Islamic-terrorists, have rather dramatic agency, and must be fought and defeated. In short, they should be chased world wide. Thus after 9/11, war against the abomination that is the Taliban became inevitable and fully supportable. But what did we get from the loopy pseudo-left? It’s about an oil pipeline!
Any credible strategy, for fighting this ‘war-on-terror’, must include, both stopping terrorists, and reducing the quality of their arms and training; both in quantity, and quality. This much we should be able to agree on, the war in
The only prospect for long term success, (and that is virtually all that counts), that I can conceive of is to empower the people of the Middle-East, through a modernity project of some description. IMV Bush and his inner-circle came up with the same project that Chomsky did. Only Bush is in the position to do it, and is doing it. The next do-able part of the project was to rid the world of Saddam, and Iraq of U.N., sanctions; then muddle through empowering the locals, and getting an acceptable constitution adopted; and elections held. As we speak, this is happening, and as with all war, it rolls-on, warts and all.
The war in
Victory, throughout the region, will ultimately smash terrorists, by drying up the mass- supported issues they mobilize for; and weakening the fundamentalism common to backward societies. Advanced industrialized societies are not run by Taliban types. Honor killing of daughters, and wives is rare. Women are no longer charged with indecency, as the Australian, Annette Kellerman, was in the
The
Rather than allow the gangster regime of Mubarak to continue to build resentment and the eventual backlash the
The pseudo-left actually want stability and couldn’t even cheer the fall of that fascist tyranny in
Bush has a strategic plan that he is putting forth to change the world. He doesn’t mention the bourgeois revolution anymore than he proclaims himself as a representative of the ruling class. What do people expect? The real question is; objectively is that revolution what he has turned the
Turning to...BVAC
Yes it is true that there are two sides to every war, but take the case of the Civil War, even Lincoln did not declare that putting an end to slavery was the principal war aim from the start. That principal war aim was unfolded later. That should not surprise anyone, it is to be expected in a class society
’If Iraq turns out to be an Islamic republic run by clerics campaigning on anti-Americanism, was all of this nonsense worth it?’
Yes it would; because history will not stop for any Islamic republics either. Modernity is at war with tyranny and feudal reaction. The bulk of people in
We owe it, to the fallen heroes of this just, and essentially completed, war of liberation, to come to grips with the reality of why we went to war. It was and is to start the process of draining the swamp of the entire
If you doubt that the US would be condemned, try to advocate that Coalition military forces be used, regardless of UN security council vetoes by Russia or China, on virtually any ‘peace’ blog and report back; we will wait without holding our breath.
-
Victory is clearly within the grasp of the Iraqi peoples.
The Iraqi people will be in control through a democratically elected government with sufficient armed forces building up to control their territory and contribute to the fall of the reactionary anti democratic governments all around them. The
’Forcing democracy down the barrel of a gun is tough to do, at around $400 billion a pop.’ Isn’t that the truth! So; people who think that the
You ask me to describe the old policies remember Marcos and the Shah and the invasion of
Your comments about electoral fraud etc, is not racist, but naïve in the extreme. When all the negotiations and maneuvering of the vast number of political entities and players in
ROBERT LOCKWOOD MILLS
Your post is a nonsense; and if you read through my posts since Comment 7 you will understand why even if you still disagree with me. It is vital to fight the war to drain the swamp of the
Western-style democracy always came ‘to a land that has never known it’. Only racists think that Middle Easterner’s can't assimilate it. Only a fool thinks that the Iraqi people elect a government, knowing that these politicians are going to ask the coalition to stay a while longer, yet ‘wants more than anything else for our so-called liberating troops to leave at once.’ They do not! They Want them to go ASAP after the mad bombers and Baathists have been subdued and their own forces trained to continue the fight. They know that it is the Iraqi people themselves who must ultimately win the war.
...FLORIDIOT
Does more than digress. He is still yammering on about oil years after it should have been apparent to all that the
...JOSE CHUNG
It seems to me that people are all over the place on this war, both left and right. The vast bulk of what is passing itself off as left though is nothing but a pseudo left. It is only left in form but it is right in essence. http://www.lastsuperpower.net/ has quite a deal of discussion of this if you want to look around the site.
...CATHERINE
Your question ‘Have you gone over and asked any Iraqis what they would like?’ is to be answered by the results of the election. Listen to their elected representatives and do not assume that any expert knows how to represent their constituents better than those that were elected.
All this talk about Iraqi love of tyranny could be just a well applied to the Japanese. Thankfully Macarthur ignored your type of expert advise, and instead started that country on the road to a bourgeois democracy.
Iraqi’s do not need to be abandoned while the likes of Jordanian terrorists cross the border with their Jihadists, to impose terror on the people, they need to be listened to and their army trained ASAP. Keep your eye on the Kurds who will undoubtedly be the most powerful force for liberation in the whole region. It’s time to wake up and smell the coffee, because the times they are a changing and changing fast.
...ROBERT LOCKWOOD MILLS
’An Iraqi would have no frame of reference for the word, no matter what his branch of Islam or his politics. He doesn't relate to left-wing vs. right-wing,’
You know not your ass from your elbow! Iraqi communists celebrated long and hard on the streets of
...CATHERINE
’Uninformed ideology serves no one, and particularly not the Iraqi people.’
Bravo. Now deal with some aspect of this war of liberation that is complex.
...BVAC
The United States was the liberator in Iraq and the 2,165 dead and 16,000 wounded casualties (half of which were returned to active duty in about 72hrs) suffered were for the purpose of launching the bourgeois revolution for the entire Middle East.
The ruling class through their ruling elite can not say this directly anymore than it could say that there is a ruling class and proletarians only work here. Nevertheless that is the stage of history we find ourselves in.
The original justification was all they thought they would have to say, because they believed it like every body else. Since that angle flopped the actual mission has been revealed and they are saying it as plainly as one could possibly expect (without taking out a copy of Das Capital and bashing you on the head with it.)
This $400 billion dollar boondoggle was worth every penny and the heroic 2,165 lives because there is no alternative that will work.
Bush, Blair and others are bungling revolutionaries on a steep learning curve but there is no alternative than liberating the whole world by one means or another. In the case of
‘holding elections where pro-western secular candidates were squashed by anti-American Muslim clerics,’ proves conclusively, that it’s not about nicking oil but about genuine liberation.
The Iraqi people are being put firmly in control and their own constitution is good stuff by standards. Read it. It will influence the next 20years of Middle Eastern history as profoundly as the fall of the Berlin Wall influenced the last 20 odd in
This Issue has now broken through to a whole new level, and pretending that nothing has changed will never do; so people interested in
COMMENT #51 [link]
...Doug Eldritch said on
Oh right Patrick, that's all very lovely but that doesn't prove a thing.
Contrary to your drivel I am not racist, anti semite or against negroes either.
In fact, I am anti zionist...and especially neocon. I see things through the real FULL glass, and not in your dogmatic view of blame "the terror on the arabs" and numerous other lies.....There is plenty of blame to go around for the terror, and class-based division of society. You only add to it.
Give the people what they want free from a repressive society and you will see them grow on their own, and that includes the Sunni Arabs. All the colonies in the
Clearly the
Terrorism will NEVER all be defeated, and further everyone will die if they stay there. There will never be a win to this anywhere. And the only way to change cultures from hating eachother is changing the whole paradigm, not creating more wars and racial conflicts.
You'll find it right here in the
Doug E.
COMMENT #52 [link]
...czaragorn said on
PatrickM - surely it's occurred to you that the Peace Corps was a much better idea for achieving your lofty goals?
COMMENT #53 [link]
...Patrickm said on
czaragorn:
I don't know if you have followed this thread, if not, would you like to comment on # 7; because I believe there has now been effectively a total collapse of the anti war position, from an anti racist point of view, (an old war having ended, and a new one started), as I outlined there, and have attempted to defend in several posts since. Sorry about the length of the last post but I had been accused of being to simplistic and not looking at enough of the issues.
COMMENT #54 [link]
...Captain Insano said on
I would sure like to know what an American victory in
This war in
This war on terrorism will be never ending. There are no countries to surrender, so it seems to me the Puppet Masters invented this war on terrorism to keep us at perpetual war, so that the UNPATRIOT ACT will stay with us forever, so we can have our privacy invaded all in the name of the war on terrorism.
One thing comes to mind. What happened to the old
One last comment. Is it just a coincidence that Osama Bin Laden (C.I.A. trained) was involved in both wars?????? :confused:
COMMENT #55 [link]
...czaragorn said on
Poor Pat - I didn't comment on #7 because I didn't think it was worthy of comment. If you truly believe that we in the 'reality-based community" hold obsolete views, that the "new reality" the neocons are busy spinning must be allowed to spin on to its obvious conclusion, then you are a lost soul. Please do yourself a favor and consider some reality-based alternatives to your most peculiar views. There is always hope. A peaceful and comfortable new year to you.
COMMENT #56 [link]
...Robert Lockwood Mills said on
For Patrick M.: I don't know what you've been reading, my friend...but you've got just about everything wrong where
The most fervent wish of both Shiites and Sunnis in
You are a master of sophistry, Patrick (look the word up in the dictionary if you don't know the meaning). The election in
Your most outrageous statement, which goes beyond sophistry into absurdity, is "Western-style democracy always came to a land that has never known it." Hello? How about
How many other examples do you want before you understand that democracy in the 20th century has come to mean whatever the
You throw accusations of racism and anti-Semitism around pretty freely, I've noticed. Yet you refer to the
As far as racism is concerned, what is more racist than to link Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, two men who hate each other, simply because they're both Muslims whom we happen to hate also?
COMMENT #57 [link]
...Captain Insano said on
It is argued that it is better to fight the terrorists in their backyard, then to fight them in our own backyard. I guess I don't see an attack anytime soon by shiploads of a terrorist army.
The fact is after 9-11, we saw the creation of the Homeland Security Department. It was all lip service from the administration to make us feel like we safer and that the Government is protecting it's citizens.
Homeland security is a myth. Just a week ago 250+ pounds of explosives were stolen from a lab in
How secure was this lab and labs just like it all around our country. No security guards are required by law, no security camera's are required by law....just a chain link fence!!
This report of the stolen explosives was mentioned late last Sunday night. Not a word was mentioned about on main stream media, was it because that Monday Michael Chertoff, head of Homeland Security had a scheduled press conference about the HLSD's future goals and plans?????
Congress is starting to look into the fraud of millions of dollars going to contracts in HLS. The way I see it. We are no safer.
Homeland Security if implemented correctly would have been a far more effective tool against terrorists, then billions of dollars & the death of 2100+
Bush should be waterboarded allong with the neocons and congress so that we can finally get the truth from these crooks and murders!
COMMENT #58 [link]
...plunger said on
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/01/cheney.halliburton/
Given what we know about VP Cheney's direct financial ties to Haliburton, isn't it clear that he has committed a fraud against the
Section 1031. Major fraud against the United States
(a) Whoever knowingly executes, or attempts to execute, any scheme or artifice with the intent -
(1) to defraud the United States; or
(2) to obtain money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, in any procurement of property or services as a prime contractor with the United States or as a subcontractor or supplier on a contract in which there is a prime contract with the United States, if the value of the contract, subcontract, or any constituent part thereof, for such property or services is $1,000,000 or more shall, subject to the applicability of subsection (c) of this section, be fined not more than $1,000,000, or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
(1) the gross loss to the Government or the gross gain to a defendant is $500,000 or greater; or
(2) the offense involves a conscious or reckless risk of serious personal injury.
LINK HERE
The financial links between those who lied, and those who benefitted as a direct result of the lies (primarily in the oil and military industries) are clear. The evidence that the President's speech knowingly included a lie about the Niger Yellow Cake is proveable in a court of law under oath.
That the Vice President knew for a fact that the claim was based on a forgery in advance of the President's speech is a given. That he instructed others to ensure that the sentence made it into the speech is also a given. What did the Vice President know, and when did he know it?
Everytime the Vice President knowingly lied to the American People to advance the cause of war, he committed a crime against the
Indict Dick Cheney for Fraud.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040216fa_fact
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/politics/main575356.shtml
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030711-7.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030714-4.html
The outing of Valarie Plame falls into precisely the same category, as it was specifically designed to ensure that the lead up to war continued apace...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031001-6.html
Consummate diplomats like Wilson typically do not speak of "lies." So outraged was
It was a double whammy. And, as is now well known, the White House moved swiftly-if clumsily (and apparently illegally)-to retaliate.
It was clear from the start that Vice President Dick Cheney and Kemosabe (Amer. Indian for "Scotter") Libby, as well as Karl Rove, were taking the lead in this operation to make an object lesson of
http://www.counterpunch.org/mcgovern10202005.html
But there is abundant evidence that senior White House officials were aware of the CIA's doubts regarding the
Moreover, there is strong evidence that the CIA clearly conveyed its doubts about the
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030728&s=editorial072803
Indict Vice President Cheney. Put him under oath.
COMMENT #59 [link]
...Soul Rebel said on
RLM..
COMMENT #60 [link]
...Captain Insano said on
So true comment #56!!!!!!! People are so blind, and tend to forget history.
Our country has been doing this forever. Hell, we also like to aid countries with military training and weapons and then we end up warring with these same countries years later...examples:
During WWII we trained chinese teenagers as fighter pilots at Pensa Cola, Fla. Years later everyone wondered if it were Russians pilots flying the Russian MIG'S against our troops in Korea, it turns out it was those same American trained chinese fighter pilots.
We aided and sold weapons to Saddam during the
We aided, trained and armed Osama Bin Laden and his freedom fighters in the
COMMENT #61 [link]
...Floridiot said on
I, myself, don't answer to trolls, because they have this neo-reality that the media (aka, government) spews, and I refuse to become a talking point purveyor
Theres plenty of them around to do this already
COMMENT #62 [link]
...big johnny said on
Ritter is of course correct, and the smearing and lies with regard to Ritter are of a piece with those described above re: Joe and Valerie Wilson. And for the same reasons outlined in Plunger's post above regarding going to war, we are now to be treated to an extended protraction of a so-called "exit". Substantial
COMMENT #63 [link]
...Doug Eldritch said on
Patrick,
Again I say prove that the neocon zionist vision for the Middle-East is a democracy
You probably have no idea, that the Sunnis feel persecuted and you probably have no idea that balkanization means to split up all socieities...and get them to kill eachother.
The
I say prove it. What you call freedom, I call the rape of the natural world. I call it like I see it..
And regardless of what is known about 9-11, you above all else must agree with the common facts: the official story about 9-11 is a lie
Lets Roll 911
So given that factually, the official story is a lie.....We want the truth don't we. And also there is firm suspicions that the second world trade center was hit by a military aircraft, remote controlled. And if this "non-commercial" airliner just happened to be remote controlled by a demolitions expert...then that only gives more proof to the fact World Trade Center 7 was pulled (and explosives were used!)
In fact I for one have to say beyond a shadow of any doubt, explosives were used to destroy that building. And a "military aircraft" of some sort, along with a missile, was controlled by somebody and there needs to be a complete, irreversible investigation of the entire thing so that we know what really happened on 9-11....There should be no hesitantcy or fear of the truth.
Doug E.
COMMENT #64 [link]
...Bob Bilse said on
Big Johnny (#62) said: "BUSH/CHENEY AND THEIR FRIENDS ARE MAKING BIG MONEY OFF THIS WAR. THAT'S WHY WE ARE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE".
I agree, and have contended all along, that this best describes ALL of the actions of this administration, not just regarding this war.
Fascism is not difficult to define, or recognize. Mussolini was a live example... by definition:
FASCISM:
"A political system in which all power of government is vested in a person, or group, with no other power (able) to balance and limit the activities of the government. Fascist governments are often closely associated with large corporations and sometimes with extreme nationalism and racist activities. Modern fascism is often called 'CORPORATISM'."
What is difficult is the masses not being able to come to terms with what is right in front of them. These "neocons" are hoarding and controlling your money and erasing your rights. That's what they are about.
Again, I return to one of my favorite Vidal quotes:
“It makes no difference who you vote for - the two parties are really one party representing four percent of the people”
And another:
“The corporate grip on opinion in the
COMMENT #65 [link]
...Robert Lockwood Mills said on
For Floridiot: I agree with you that arguing with trolls is frustrating. People like Patrick M. and Jose Chung aren't going to change their minds no matter what. But we have to keep pointing out the flaws in their arguments, if only to persuade others who might be on the fence.
I've noticed that trolls use either of two debating techniques that are polar opposite from each other. The smart-ass troll speaks in short sound bites and engages in name calling, rarely if ever arguing specifics. Patrick M. belongs to the other camp; he states opinion (or unproven neo-con theory) as fact, then elaborates at length by using false historical parallels and facile assumptions to justify his mind-set.
For example, Patrick says our policy in the
another C.I.A. coup.
Our policy toward Ferdinand Marcos is the best example I can think of to portray our ambivalence toward democracy. The guy stole election after election and had the opposition leader (Aquino) murdered in cold blood. Yet after all this, Reagan was still defending him as a "great friend of the
We finally learned the truth...Marcos was a smart con-man who knew how to tell the
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
COMMENT #66 [link]
...Arry said on
# 50 - PatrickM -- Really, I was trying to be helpful. I say again, please get an education. That comes first, you know. Then comes the theory.
When I made a list of things to look into, the point wasn't to give you a vessel in which to discharge your verbal diarrhea. A little half-baked knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
Ah, "bourgeois democracy", the holy grail for those flat intellects who want to pretend things are as they used to be (although considering themselves revolutionary). Corporatism as it has developed is not bourgeois democracy - If you don't understand that, you don't understand the world at all.
For all your words, you leave out almost everything. I provided a few hints, but it doesn't look like you will take them up.
COMMENT #67 [link]
...Dredd said on
PatrickM #7,#10,#13,#18,#26,#50,#53
The pseudo political intellectualism you are displaying is typical. You throw words around without definition, and then demand to be correct in not only your premise, but in your deductions. This is childish ... playing with yourself.
First, you need to provide a definition of "democracy", "American democracy", "bourgeois democracy", and "Iraqi democracy". That is your beginning point. Then define the "old war in
Second, your suggested premise that "Twelve odd millions of the Iraqi peoples’ have just voted in an undisputed, free and fair election process ending in all important proportional representation" is just a power play, because it is devoid of any consensus whatsoever.
Just on these two things you show yourself to be nothing more than a schill for a failed administration. A parrot of worn out, useless, and failed ramblings that have not persuaded the body politic, nor for sure bloggers here.
COMMENT #68 [link]
...Robert Lockwood Mills said on
For Arry and Dredd: Let's be generous and assume Patrick is right that the Iraqi electoral process was "undisputed, free and fair (and ended) in all important (sic) proportional representation..." Let's give him this, even though he can't possibly know if it's true or not. The election might have been fair, or it might have been fixed. He doesn't know at this point, and neither do we.
What does a free and fair Iraqi election mean for the
Imagine two churches in the
Would even Patrick M. argue that 95% of the first church would not vote Democratic, and 95% of the second church not vote Republican?
I think
COMMENT #69 [link]
...bvac said on
PatrickM, #50
You are responding to questions not directed towards you. I will ignore any response given on this premise.
-
As for
-
The only other thing I asked you was:
Have you read The Pentagon's New Map?
-
I've got a pretty good idea of where you come from, PatrickM, and although I see things differently I would urge you to make your long-term projections based not on ideology, but on present-day situations and history - all things knowable.
COMMENT #70 [link]
...Arry said on
#68 -- Robert -- I think Saddam was about as close to a secular ruler as they will get. He was certainly considered a modernizer throughout the region. (Although he used religious and other power blocks.)
But having destroyed the infrastructure and brought devastation to the nation as well as having thrown open the system to an upsurge of ancient rivalries, we can look forward to theocratic intolerance as the governing political principle. Once again, like a endless loop we can't leave, we have played our cowboy game and left likely civil war, devastation, and death in our wake. What the hell is wrong with us?
COMMENT #71 [link]
...bvac said on
yawn
COMMENT #72 [link]
...Dredd said on
RLM #68
Fair enough. But that would destroy all his (PatricM) hopes of making sense of the
I mean we invaded them on false pretenses, occupy them under false pretenses, and have now given them, according to your suggested "concede a fair election", fair and open elections.
And they have elected the anti-Americans and booted out soundly the pro-Americans.
Either way the neoCon ideology comes out as madness based upon lies. It actually helps the liberal argument against the war if we allow that the elections were devoid of fraud ... as the admin must do since they managed the elections with a heavy hand (barbed wire, tanks, curfews, and martial law).
COMMENT #73 [link]
...Patrickm said on
Dredd says that my ‘suggested premise... is just a power play, because it is devoid of any consensus whatsoever.’
OK; that is well worth looking at. Also, sorry for the delay in responding.
We do need to have some agreed broad brush facts to work from. For example I think we would all like to do this; http://www.lastsuperpower.net/images/finger/view and our dispute ought to be about how this is to be done.
I don’t think anyone on this site is upset about the Allied victory in WW2, or the imposition of democratic forms of governments upon the Axis powers. People here may want more than bourgeois democracy, but they could not want less.
In short, we all ought to be able to agree that voting in free and fair elections is desirable and something for all humanity. I do not believe that commentators on this site would support slavery or tyranny. I believe we can agree that;
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,
The following is the election that we are specifically talking about;
‘The United Nations-supported “Independent” election commission monitors the Iraqi polls based on proportional representation in which about 15 million voters will head to polling stations around the country. About four million of the voters are registered in the country’s capital,
The new parliament-to-be-formed will have a four year term in office and will consist of 275 seats, like the Interim National Assembly.
Eighteen provinces, proportional to their population, will send members to parliament’ http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20051215&hn=27574
We have published stats on the populations in all the provinces and they were not disputed before the election, so all have agreed to them.
The national turnout of 70 percent of Iraqis was a large increase from the 58 percent that had participated in the January elections LINK HERE
The main Sunni parties came top of the polls in four of
The electoral commission said earlier this week it had received more than 1,000 complaints related to the election, but added that only 20 of these were "serious" and liable to result in the cancellation of votes.
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=15302
I have seen other reports of as many as 1500 complaints.
8.5m votes cast in the 30 January poll
PROVISIONAL RESULTS
Shia list: 48%
Kurdish parties: 26%
Iyad Allawi list: 14%
Others: 12% Turnout: 58% http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4261035.stm
This is the main line of complaint;
Dulaimi said he was particularly worried by the results from Baghdad, Basra and Kirkuk.
BIG PRIZE
In the city of Kirkuk, contested by Kurds, Arabs and Turkmen, the Kurdish bloc won more than half the votes amid allegations they had bussed in supporters from other areas.
Another leading member of the IAF, Hussein al-Falluji, said Friday's march was a show of strength to show the electoral commission and the Iraqi government's
But he also suggested there was room for negotiation.
"The door is still wide open to reach a solution," he said. "A deal could be made before the final election results are announced that would please all parties."
The electoral commission is examinining about 1,500 election complaints but says the vast majority are minor and will not affect the final result. It has all but ruled out a new vote.
Sunni Arabs who stayed away from the previous election of an interim assembly, turned out in large numbers this time, with many insurgents observing an informal truce to let them do so.
Sunni Arabs, dominant during Saddam Hussein's rule, are believed to form around 20 percent of
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/KAR350618.htm
The population of
0-14 years: 40% (male 5,293,709/female 5,130,826)
15-64 years: 57% (male 7,530,619/female 7,338,109)
65 years and over: 3% (male 367,832/female 413,811) (2005 est.)
Thus producing something like 14,600,000 eligible voters. (But there are the overseas refugees as well, and they are quite a large number)
I propose that we agree that the approximate breakdown of the Iraqi population is 19% Arab Sunni 19% Sunni Kurds and 57% Shia the other small national groupings like Turkomen, Assyrians etc 5% (we need a starting point, but if others can contribute more accurate figures fine I will be happy to go along with the better stats)
The intent is to find out if the election process (that we do all agree just happened) ended ‘in all important proportional representation’. If it did then we can conclude that whatever minor distortions or irregularities or corruption, the outcome is substantially free and fair. (Which is incidentally what the international observers from the UN concluded)
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/images/iraqi-woman/view
I refer people to the following news Item; http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=23631
’
The outcome of the vote is likely to be a much higher turnout than the last vote - and potentially a very different, less Shia-dominated government, says our correspondent.
He adds that while the violent, predominantly Sunni insurgency is ongoing, it has been much lower than in the run-up to the last polling day on 30 January.
Even some insurgent groups have called on people to vote, though al-Qaeda describes the elections as the work of Satan.’
We can note also the following as an agreed position.
‘The Kurdistan Alliance, dominated by Massoud Barzani's Kurdistan Democratic Party and Jalal Talabani's Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, hopes to repeat its strong performance in
The major Kurdish political parties are not Islamist even though the Kurds are Muslims of the Sunni variety. There is essentially no support for Islamism among the Kurds. They are the most politically modern segment of the Iraqi population http://www.lastsuperpower.net/images/women-peshmerger/view
Saddam was from the Arab Sunni minority, and he held absolute power through control of every important facet of Iraqi life. He essentially owned
The election ought to produce a vote, as it did in January, where political power is not monopolized by the biggest Shia groups, and power is even more broadly spread. If that is the outcome, and the final results are not far away now, then I say we should except that what the UN observers declared to be free and fair, was and is.
If we agree on this then I restate my original proposition that anti-racists have to get behind the new government of
The fact that a non puppet government has resulted rules out the old notions that the US ruling elite would install pupets in order to nick oil etc and we are left with the hard to ajust to proposition that they meant to further the bourgeois revolution in order to defeat the enemy that showed up to all on 9/11.
Free and fair elections ends the old war and the new war is being run by and for the Iraqi people with their own elected political representatives. Just as the
It is also a case of self interest, becasue the swamp must be drained or Mosquitoes will endlessly bite us.
COMMENT #74 [link]
...Patrickm said on
I appear to have stuffed up the screen, can anyone tell me how to make it fit so I can read it.
COMMENT #75 [link]
...Arry said on
#71 -- BVAC -- No commonplaces on BradBlog, eh? :) OK.
COMMENT #76 [link]
...Arry said on
Patrick -- It's the long URLs, I think, that spread the page. It works better to put them in as links. (See the "Click here" above the comment box for more information.) If you can't read it by scrolling, maybe you could change the screen area (pixels) on your monitor. Someone may fix it.
COMMENT #77 [link]
...Patrickm said on
Thank you for your advise Arry. That will teach me for not reading the instructions, I shall do so now.
COMMENT #78 [link]
...Brad said on
Have fixed the long link. Thanks for letting me know PatrickM. You may now continue your dull, unsupported, discredited, wishful-thinking, PNAC-inspired skreeds.
Cheers!
COMMENT #79 [link]
...BT said on
If any of you know where we can find a video or an audio file of the debate between Ritter and Hitchens, please post the link here. :)
I saw the debate (at least some of it) between Galloway and Hitchens, and I have to say that I was very disappointed. It was more a show than a debate of ideas and facts.
So I hope this one will be better!
Thanks a lot!
COMMENT #80 [link]
...Dredd said on
PatrickM #73
I also said you have to define the various forms of "democracy" you mandated without definition. You have not done that, however, you do make suggestion as to what "democracy" is.
You say "I don’t think anyone on this site is upset about ... the imposition of democratic forms of governments upon the Axis powers" (emphasis added).
I would argue that your sneaky premise is flawed. Democracy of the form Americans would accept, is not one that can be forced on citizens by governments. Just the opposite is true. Democracy is something that flows from the citizenry, the people, and so is government.
Democracy flows from the people or it is not American democracy. What is being forced on
As another Brad Blog Thread shows (link here), the elections purged out US favored politicians, and elected religious connected types instead. Some of those have been an important part of the insurgency all along.
So, the experiment to force neoCon democracy, an inferior form to say the least, has not even worked.
What the womb of the neoCon mama administration is producing is an Iranian type of "democracy" where people can vote all they want but will not have an American democracy.
Why? Under our form of constitutional democracy we do not vote for nor against the most valuable essences of our American democracy (The Bill of Rights, as extending the constitution). Voting is a second class mechanism under the American concept of democracy.
And the voting we demand is open, honest, verifiable, and fair. But we do not allow that to extend to our most valuable rights, because they are inviolate, inalienable, and above voting.
COMMENT #62 [link]
...Patrickm said on
Following on from Dredd's last post #at 80 in the Ritter V Hitchens thread
...DREDD
Your notions of what the USA is, sounds more like a country that dropped from heaven rather than one formed from a revolutionary struggle against British rule.
That new country formed by the activities of the revolutionaries like the slave owner Jefferson, would be almost unrecognizable to you and totally unacceptable.
It required the huge undertaking of the Civil War to drag many more people to the realization that ‘We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal.’
This was not the end of citizens having to be forced by governments because the reality was still bestial conduct, requiring ongoing struggle and culminating in the mass movement of the 1960’s. Whole sections of the country were forced to change by the federal government.
The United States were anything but united and many paid with their lives, not least the likes of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and all the thousands of others.
At all stages, the
Actually this is what has been happening since humans came down from the trees.
What was forced on the Confederacy after an invasion and occupation does qualify as democracy, and so does what just happened in Iraq, where over 90% of the people have been liberated and have voted themselves for a constitution that is democratic; both of us would come up with a better constitution no doubt (but by the same token we wouldn’t tolerate a slave owner like Jefferson either).
As for the elections;
You say ‘the elections purged out US favored politicians, and elected religious connected types instead. Some of those have been an important part of the insurgency all along. So, the experiment to force neoCon democracy…has not even worked. … voting we demand is open, honest, verifiable, and fair. But we do not allow that to extend to our most valuable rights, because they are inviolate, inalienable, and above voting.’
My proposition is that the 1st war has ended if the election in Iraq was free and fair and that a new war has now formally started that is (in essence) Iraqi controlled and they are entitled to the same support that the US was (fully deserving of) as of the 9/11 attack.
If the entire Arab Sunni population about 19%, were the problem, (and they most certainly are not), then the 81% of the population would still deserve the support of the international community. All humanity is created equal.
Fear of Shia theocratic rule is a non event because of the power of the Kurds.
Was the Election Free and Fair I got the following report from here,
http://www.ieciraq.org/English/Home.htm
Baghdad, 24/12/2005
"This election has been one of the most observed in the whole world", says Mr. Adil Al-Lami, the Chief Electoral Officer of the IECI. He adds that observer groups deployed 120,000 committed and well trained observers in all 18 governorates, all polling centers across
230.000 political entity agents also monitored the election. In average 55 observers or political entity agents were present at each polling center. This incredible level of monitoring helps to ensure the integrity, transparency and credibility of the election.
The observers and agents could observe all the phases of the electoral process, including polling, counting and tallying of the votes. The observer groups used sound and well tested methodologies to monitor the election and this enabled them to present reliable findings.
"The observer reports have been by and large very positive regarding the electoral process", says Mr. Al-Lami. The incidents and issues acknowledged in the reports can be considered marginal.
The observer groups reported that the electoral staff capitalized on the accumulative experience from January and October, and that the voting went smoothly in general. The incidents have been reduced in magnitude.
EIN, the largest Iraqi observer group encompassing over 14.000 observers in all governorates, issued on Wednesday its reports on special voting and the election-day.
The International Mission for Iraqi Elections (IMIE), an international electoral observation group that also issued reports in January and October, released earlier this week a partial report. It contains valuable recommendations, and it praises the electoral process in general.
While some problems have been pointed out in the observer reports, such as people not being able to find their names on the voter lists, campaign violations and a shortage of electoral material, these problems did not reach an alarming magnitude.
The observers also attested that the secrecy of vote, the check of IDs and the inking procedures have been consistently followed, preventing multiple or group voting.
Mr. Adil Al-Lami encourages the political contestants and the media to look at the findings of the observer reports. These organizations are independent from the IECI, and they provide documented facts and findings on the electoral process.
This is good stuff. Whatever the protests are about, they are not going to substantially change the result of the election.
A government of national consensuses will be formed after some weeks, or months of negotiations and the current hysterics about
The situation is very much one of ‘steady as she goes’ across most of the country, with the Kurdish peoples’ leading by example, as they continue to develop their security through maintaining the peshmerga, thus maintaining all their political freedoms while they continue the process of modernizing their culture.
Nobody will be imposing anything on the Kurds, and they would be protected by the international community if anyone tried to. They are the rock of the bourgeois democratic revolution in
But IMV Baghdad ultimately decides the issue of democracy in
The industrial power of the North was always going to dominate once things got rolling.
The big cities dominate around the world.
So, if the religious goons oppress people (which they tend to do) where they live, then the people being oppressed will eventually run-away to
However the ongoing struggle for democracy unfolds it will be protracted and multifaceted. It will take a decade or more before the full impact of the liberated youth in particular starts to flower. But the flowers will be across the entire
I have seen this type of ‘brinkmanship’ politics played to the wire (and beyond) before. It is quite common in countries newly emerging from wars. When the issue, only a few short months ago was the creation of a democratic constitution for
Yet if you read that document now it is clear why so many political parties could and would be prepared to stand for election. It is clear that a formal bourgeois democracy in
That formality will have to be made real through a struggle like that to free
PatrickM
For those who haven’t followed my reasoning on this election and are interested in thinking this through I posted in the Ritter V Hitchens thread at #7, and then tried to defend those thoughts at #10, #13, #18, #26, #50, #53, #73, #74, #77 (and I apologize for the unreadable way post 73 turned out).
COMMENT #63 [link]
...Judge of Judges said on
It would have been lot easier if gwb Inc. just installed
a dictator. I. E. Ron Jeremy, looks the part.
