I'm starting this as a thread so that bpors and anyone else can actually provide links to all those polls that show that 90% of Iraqis want an immediate US withdrawal. Please do not post links to newspaper reports but to the polls themselves.

It arises from the claim in this statement:

"But I only mentioned this fact - a fact, hopefully you now accept - because you were questioning the methodology of the other polls that showed 90% wanted the occupation forces out immediately".

Easy really: just post the links to the polls (note the plural) that show that 90% of Iraqis want the occupation forces out immediately.

Watch this space.

Barry

Read the various polls. Nearly all  of the Iraqis want the occupation troops out. Most of them approve attacking occupation troops. Four years on, and your  can-do Murkan heroes can’t even supply electricity and fuel!

Youngmarxist briefly disputed this in a post which also covered other issues. He also asked bpors to provide links.

Youngmarxist you are wrong on a point of fact and should apologise to bpors.

 

bpors "Most of them approve of attacking occupation troops"

 

youngmarxist "No they don't. I have delt with this untruth here."

 

"Support for attacks on US-led forces has grown to a majority position - now six in ten"

 

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/sep06/Iraq_Sep06_rpt.pdf

(link now fixed)

youngmarxist: "Wow! What an amazing insight.

I feel so let down that the managers of this site have not seen fit to recognise this crucial fact and, say, incorporate it in the name of the website. But that's cool, I do enjoy coming here to Americawillruletheworldforverandneverfalter.net"

 

Thanks for sharing what must be for you the highest form of wit.

 

youngmarxist: "Link?"

 

The poll results you linked was right at the time of  the election where all sides agreed to allow that election to proceed. They were released in Jan 2006. Before the Shiite mosque was destroyed. So there was less violence then, and an optimism that things might change for the better.

Here is one from 2005   

Secret MoD poll: Iraqis support attacks on British troops

By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 11:59pm BST 22/10/2005

Millions of Iraqis believe that suicide attacks against British troops are justified, a secret military poll commissioned by senior officers has revealed.

The poll, undertaken for the Ministry of Defence and seen by The Sunday Telegraph, shows that up to 65 per cent of Iraqi citizens support attacks and fewer than one per cent think Allied military involvement is helping to improve security in their country....

It demonstrates for the first time the true strength of anti-Western feeling in Iraq after more than two and a half years of bloody occupation.

 

And another from September of 2006:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721_pf.html

Most Iraqis Favor Immediate U.S. Pullout, Polls Show
Leaders' Views Out of Step With Public

By Amit R. Paley
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 27, 2006; A22

BAGHDAD, Sept. 26 -- A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S.-led military forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying their swift departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence, according to new polls by the State Department and independent researchers.

In Baghdad, for example, nearly three-quarters of residents polled said they would feel safer if U.S. and other foreign forces left Iraq, with 65 percent of those asked favoring an immediate pullout, according to State Department polling results obtained by The Washington Post....

 

 The Washington Post article goes on to air the opinions of Iraqis and the current thinking in Baghdad about the occupation by Iraqis. They live there under the American jackboot. They should know:

 

Here is an excerpt. What a sad disaster for those people:

 

Interviews with two dozen Baghdad residents in recent weeks suggest one central cause for Iraqi distrust of the Americans: They believe the U.S. government has deliberately thrown the country into chaos.

The most common theory heard on the streets of Baghdad is that the American military is creating a civil war to create an excuse to keep its forces here.

"Do you really think it's possible that America -- the greatest country in the world -- cannot manage a small country like this?" Mohammad Ali, 42, an unemployed construction worker, said as he sat in his friend's electronics shop on a recent afternoon. "No! They have not made any mistakes. They brought people here to destroy Iraq, not to build Iraq."

As he drew on a cigarette and two other men in the store nodded in agreement, Ali said the U.S. government was purposely depriving the Iraqi people of electricity, water, gasoline and security, to name just some of the things that most people in this country often lack.

"They could fix everything in one hour if they wanted!" he said, jabbing his finger in the air for emphasis.

Mohammed Kadhem al-Dulaimi, 54, a Sunni Arab who used to be a professional soccer player, said he thought the United States was creating chaos in the country as a pretext to stay in Iraq as long as it has stayed in Germany.

"All bad things that are happening in Iraq are just because of the Americans," he said, sipping a tiny cup of sweet tea in a cafe. "When should they leave? As soon as possible. Every Iraqi will tell you this."

Many Iraqi political leaders, on the other hand, have been begging the Americans to stay, especially since the February bombing of a Shiite Muslim shrine in Samarra, which touched off the current round of sectarian reprisal killings between Sunnis and Shiites.

The most dramatic about-face came from Sunni leaders, initially some of the staunchest opponents to the U.S. occupation, who said coalition forces were the only buffer preventing Shiite militias from slaughtering Sunnis.

Mahmoud al-Mashhadani, the outspoken Sunni speaker of parliament who this summer said that "the U.S. occupation is the work of butchers," now supports the U.S. military staying in Iraq for as long as a decade.

"Don't let them go before they have corrected what they have done," he said in an interview this month. "They should stay for four years. This is the minimum. Maybe 10 years."

Particularly in mixed neighborhoods here in the capital, some Sunnis say the departure of U.S. forces could trigger a genocide. Hameed al-Kassi, 24, a recent college graduate who lives in the Yarmouk district of Baghdad, worried that rampages by Shiite militias could cause "maybe 60 to 70 percent of the Sunnis to be killed, even the women, old and the young."

"There will be lakes of blood," Kassi said. "Of course we want the Americans to leave, but if they do, it will be a great disaster for us."

In a barbershop in the capital's Karrada district Tuesday afternoon, a group of men discussed some of the paradoxical Iraqi opinions of coalition troops. They recognized that the departure of U.S.-led forces could trigger more violence, and yet they harbored deep-rooted anger toward the Americans.

"I really don't like the Americans who patrol on the street. They should all go away," said a young boy as he swept up hair on the shop's floor. "But I do like the one who guards my church. He should stay!"

Sitting in a neon-orange chair as he waited for a haircut, Firas Adnan, a 27-year-old music student, said: "I really don't know what I want. If the Americans leave right now, there is going to be a massacre in Iraq. But if they don't leave, there will be more problems. From my point of view, though, it would be better for them to go out today than tomorrow."

He paused for a moment, then said, "We just want to go back and live like we did before."

byork responded:

The "secret MOD poll" is a bit out of date: October 2005. At any rate, it does not reveal that 65% of Iraqis support attacks against US and British forces at all. If you read the Telegraph report, it says that 65% in the Maysan province feel that way. Overall, the figure was 45% of all Iraqis. This has already been dealt with in previous posts, in relation to the World Public Opinion organisation's two polls in 2006, which showed majorities in favour of attacks, and majorities (wrongly) believing that the US planned a permanent occupation of Iraq. The former opinion reflects the latter belief. Yet, at the same time, majorities did not support an immediate withdrawal of coalition troops. The secret MOD poll found that 82% of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition troops, but the real issue is whether they want them out now, as the remnant anti-war leaders and the insurgents demand. I have never doubted that Iraqis want the foreign forces out (for that matter, so does Bush and co) but they have the good sense to know that it's not in their interests to have them leave now. The World Public Opinion polls found that majorites did not want them out immediately but within a year. The MOD poll does not seem to have asked that specific question.

 

The report in the Washington Post is recent (Spetember 2006) and draws on a State Department poll and a poll conducted for World Public Opinion organisation. The State Department poll found majorities in each region, except the Kurdish north, supporting an immediate withdrawal, though figures were not given in the newspaper report. The poll conducted for World Public Opinion found that overall 71% of Iraqis want foreign forces to depart within a year. This contradicts the State Department poll's finding that overall majorities favour an immediate withdrawal.

 

An interesting feature of the WPO poll is that support for a withdrawal of US forces among Sunnis has declined significantly from 83% in January 2006 to 57% in September 2006. The Sunnis know that the US forces protect them from Shia death squads.

 

Needless to say, the Iraqi people's voice is ultimately expressed by the government they elected, not by opinion polls based on small samples, even though these may be indicative of a mood at the time of the polling.

 

Barry

bpors replied:

BYork,

 

In the latest polls that you mention there is no question that puts plainly that Iraqis  want the troops to leave immediately.

you conclude (wrongly) that the Iraqis are misinformed about America planning permanent bases in Iraq. Well, they are there in Iraq. They see the construction of the permanaent bases, the troop movements, the obvious strategic placements, and all the local news. They know where all the major oil well sites are. They know where the oil pipelines go. I would trust their opinion on this subject over yours, anyday. Just as I would respect your opinion and informatiion about affairs in your locale over an Iraqi picking out media reports on the same subject.

 

The World Public Opinion poll you quote is just about as out dated as the "Secret MOD poll". It was released January 2006. And the figures were from November or December 2005, I believe. The later one in September 2006 gives a different picture.

 

That Sunnis are now panicking and are wanting protection from the Shiite government-supported death squads is no good news. That is a sick, sad way to bump up the numbers. Much of the shiite death squads come from the Ministry of The Interior in cahoots with Sadr's gang. Many Iraqis claim to see those same uniforms roaming the streets looking for people with Sunni names. The latest video of Saddam going to the gallows has some officials shouting Sadr's name. This what Iraq has become in 4 years under Bush the Idiot. A disaster.

 

I believe the Washington Post was claiming most Iraqis want an immediate withdrawal based on the bleed'n obvious. Yes, no direct question is put to the Iraqi people on this. Remember, this is made for the State Department of America. I would guess they don't want to publish the answer to that question. Bush doesn't want to hear it. But all the other points of the vast majority of what Iraqis think the occupation points to this; they support attacks on occupation troops, they think the occupation is a disaster, they don't trust the occupation troops etc...it all adds up to that.

 

Here is a another poll that would lead to the same conclusion that Iraqis want an immediate withdrawal:

Angus Reid Global Monitor : Polls & Research
Iraqis Say They Were Better Off Under Hussein
January 3, 2007
 (Angus Reid Global Monitor) - Many adults in Iraq believe the coalition effort has been negative, according to a poll by the Iraq Centre for Research and Strategic Studies and the Gulf Research Center. 90 per cent of respondents think the situation in their country was better before the U.S.-led invasion.

The coalition effort against Saddam Hussein’s regime was launched in March 2003. At least 3,000 American soldiers have died during the military operation, and more than 22,500 troops have been wounded in action.

There has been no official inquiry on the actual number of Iraqi casualties. A volunteer group of British and U.S. academics and researchers—known as Iraq Body Count (IBC)—estimates that more than 52,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed during the military intervention.

In December 2005, Iraqi voters renewed their National Assembly. In May 2006, Shiite United Iraqi Alliance member Nouri al-Maliki officially took over as prime minister.

The survey was conducted in November 2006, before the publication of the Iraq Study Group’s findings in the United States, and Hussein’s execution for crimes against humanity. Late last month, Al-Maliki called on the "followers of the ousted regime" to "reconsider their stance as the door is still open to anyone who has no innocent blood on his hands to help in rebuilding Iraq."

Polling Data

Do you feel the situation in the country is better today or better before the U.S.-led invasion?

Better today
 5%
 
Better before
 90%
 
Not sure
 5%
 

Source: Iraq Centre for Research and Strategic Studies / Gulf Research Center
Methodology: Face-to-face interviews with 2,000 Iraqi adults in Baghdad, Anbar and Najaf, conducted in late November 2006. Margin of error is 3.1 per cent.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/14282

 

I don't need to see figures on whether they want the occupation forces out and their country liberated from the yankee imperialists immediately, especially after reading things are so bad 90% would prefer Saddam to Bush. That is self evident. That is what the Washington Post says too, I believe.

 

BTW, I have recently been reading up on what Lenin had to say about the parasitic nature of American capitalism. Of course America has become very much what Europe was in Lenin's day. But it is just as true today.

followed by youngmarxist:

I am indeed wrong, and I apologise to bpors.

The World Public Opinion poll from September 2006, which is quoted in the Washington Post article that bpors links to, does say that:

Support for attacks on US-led forces has grown to a majority position—now six in ten. Support appears to be related to widespread perception, held by all ethnic groups, that the US government plans to have permanent military bases in Iraq and would not withdraw its forces from Iraq even if the Iraqi government asked it to.

The report also says that:

Naturally the question arises: If only one in three Iraqis favors US withdrawal in the shortest possible time frame of six months, why then is support for attacks on US-led forces as high as 61 percent? Indeed, among those who approve of such attacks, only 50 percent favor withdrawal in six months—though another 37 percent favor it in a year.

It is always difficult to know why people have certain attitudes, but some findings are strongly suggestive. A large majority of Iraqis—and a majority in all ethnic groups-- believes that the US plans to maintain permanent military bases in Iraq and would not withdraw its forces if the Iraqi government asked it to. Among those who support attacks this belief is especially high, while those who do not support attacks mostly believe that it is not the case. This suggests that some Iraqis approve of such attacks, not because they are so eager for the US-led forces to get out immediately, but because they want to put pressure on the US to get out eventually.

Perhaps more significant, approximately the same number—78%—believe that “If the new Iraqi government were to tell the US to withdraw all of its forces within six months,” the US would refuse to do so. Here again this view is held by a majority of all groups—64 percent of Kurds, 76 percent of Shias and 96 percent of Sunnis.

The belief that the US plans to have permanent bases in Iraq is highly correlated with support for attacks on US-led forces. Among those who believe this, 68 percent approve of attacks. Among those who believe that the US plans to withdraw once Iraq is stabilized, only 34 percent approve of attacks. Beliefs about whether the US would respond to an Iraqi government request to withdraw follow the same pattern.

There is also some evidence that if the US were to make a commitment to withdraw according to a timetable, support for attacks would diminish. The 61 percent who said they approved of attacks were asked: “If the US made a commitment to withdraw from Iraq according to a timetable, would you feel less supportive of attacks against US-led forces or would it make no difference?” Most of these—36% (of the full sample)—said that they would feel less supportive, while 23 percent said it would make no difference. Those saying they would feel less supportive included 43 percent of the Shias and 42 percent of the Sunnis.

I believe that the majority of Iraqis are mistaken, and that the USA will in fact leave when told to, and does not plan to have permanent bases in Iraq against the will of the Iraqi government.

If the USA does stay in Iraq against the wishes of the democratically elected government, then attacks on them would be justified - and casualty figures would quickly start looking like those from Vietnam.

As Barry points out, the two polls that the Washington Post quotes contradict each other, and we have no way of checking the figures in the State Department poll. The WaPo article does not quote a specific finding from the State Department poll, and provides no evidence for the assertion in the first paragraph that:

A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S.-led military forces to immediately withdraw from the country

The WaPo article bpors quotes notes that:

Particularly in mixed neighborhoods here in the capital, some Sunnis say the departure of U.S. forces could trigger a genocide. Hameed al-Kassi, 24, a recent college graduate who lives in the Yarmouk district of Baghdad, worried that rampages by Shiite militias could cause "maybe 60 to 70 percent of the Sunnis to be killed, even the women, old and the young."

"There will be lakes of blood," Kassi said. "Of course we want the Americans to leave, but if they do, it will be a great disaster for us."

Do you support the US leaving, given that people quoted in articles you use to back up your case say that it would lead to 'lakes of blood'?

The World Public Opinion poll also makes clear that vast majorities of Iraqis utterly reject the terrorists that the US forces are there to fight, want the central government to control the militias and reject attacks on Iraqis by terrorists.

If the Iraqi government really believed that they could deliver these things now, they would tell the US to leave. If the US refused, the Iraqi government would call the Iraqi people to arms.

To rational people it would be strange to argue on the basis of a poll (WPO, September 2006) that found that the majority (71%) of Iraqis do not want the US-led forces to withdraw immediately that, in fact, the majority of Iraqis want them out immediately. A newspaper report of an old 'secret MOD poll', whose methodology is unknown, contradicts the WPO poll findings but then another report of a poll is offered up, this time based on a sample of 2,000 Iraqis in... guess where?!.... Baghdad, Najaf and Anbar. (Are we really meant to take a poll of 2,000 in Iraq's worst centres of violence as representative of all Iraqi opinion?). The latest report linked by bpors once again does not pose the question as to whether Iraqis want an immediate withdrawal or not but this does not bother bpors. After all, it is no problem to post second-hand reports of polls (how about showing some sincerity and posting links to the actual polls?) and, no matter what the reports say they find, it all boils down to this mantra: I don't need to see figures on whether they want the occupation forces out and their country.         

 

Why did I bother to write that response?

 

And any comments on my "Crude Designs" post (p 2 of the "oil thread" )will be gratefully received, providing they're not from people who already know the truth without needing evidence.

 

Barry

bpors wrote:

BYork: "Why did I bother to write that response?"

 

After reading your post, I was wondering the same thing.

 

The WPO polls, which you place so much faith in, don't even disclose which company that did their polling for them. Apparently, for security reasons that is a secret. So we can't know the bona fides of who did the polling. I'm not saying the figures (as far as they go) aren't genuine, just that I would not put them above the other polls mentioned like you so readily do.

 

You state Baghdad, Najaf and Anbar are the worst centres for violence. Ever heard of  Samarra, Doura, Ramadi, Baiji, Tikrit, Samarra, Balad, Mosul, Haditha, all of Basra... the list goes on and on. Excactly where were you thinking the poll should be held? At one of the neocon think tanks in Washington?

 

The people of Iraq believe that permanent bases are being built in Iraq. They live there. They are watching the permanent bases getting built, just like you would watch your local freeway getting built. They are impossible to hide. All this is reasonable to conclude. Yet from here, you tell them they are wrong! Before you criticize my thinking, you need to look to your own.

 

The WPO does not give a figure for those Iraqis wanting the fascist occupation forces to leave immediately. It does not even ask the question. A glaring omission. An obvious omission. An analogy would be if 90% of the people have bananas as their favorite fruit. But a questionaire asks only the preference between oranges and lemons. Say 60% say they prefer oranges. Only an idiot, or a member of the Orange Grower's Association would conclude from such a poll that therefore oranges are more popular than bananas.  No proper figure would be result. And this is the case with the WPO poll on the withdrawal question.

All the other polls - that aren't requested by the American government and do not couch the question from an American government perspective - say the overwhelming majority want them out immediately.

 

So you attack me, and attack the polls, and tell the Iraqi people - who you claim you want free - they are wrong. Gee, you sure seem have a hard time with reality.

byork wrote:

I reckon I could spend the rest of the Summer correcting bpors' factual errors and sloppiness. His politics are way to the Right of George W and I accept that I will not move him leftwards. However, before once again (probably wrongly) declaring that this will be the last time I respond to him, I'd like to point out that the WPO poll did give the people polled options on the issue of US withdrawal. If bpors bothered to read the poll, which was posted in full by youngmarxist only a couple of posts ago, he would have noticed this - and he also would have noticed that, contrary to what he says, the company doing the polling was not kept secret for security reasons at all. Here's the link (again!): http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/sep06/Iraq_Sep06_rpt.pdf 

 

The WPO poll was conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitude which is based at Maryland University. The company that did the field-work is D3 Systems/KA Research. When bpors says "The WPO does not give a figure for those Iraqis wanting the fascist occupation forces to leave immediately. It does not even ask the question. A glaring omission" he would have a point were it not for the fact that those polled were asked whether they supported a withdrawal within six mnoths, a year, within two years, or only as security improves. The figure of 71% is the combined total of those wanting a withdrawal within 6 months (37%) and those wanting it within a year (34%). The remaining 29% wanted a withdrawal within two years (20%) and only as security improves (9%). Of the 37% wanting a withdrawal within six months, it would be interesting to know what proportion would respond affirmatively to the question of immediate withdrawal. If it were as high as 90% of the 37%, it would mean about a third of Iraqis favour an immediate withdrawal - approximately the same as those who want the US forces to remain up to two years or until the security situation improves.

 

The same poll found a majority in favour of attacks on US forces and found that a majority believe the US is going to stay for good. Interesting then that the great majority didn't favour withdrawal within six months; though none of this matters to bpors. He believes that: "I don't need to see figures on whether they want the occupation forces out".

 

Even bpors knows that some parts of Iraq are less violence-prone than others. The location of the sampling poses a big challenge to any pollsters. The WPO September poll sampled 1,150 Iraqis across Iraq's 18 governates and acknowledges an 'oversampling of Arab Sunnis'. Sure, public opinion polls can help understand a mood, especially when conducted to the same schedule over time, but 1,150 people over 18 governates averages out at about 64 Iraqis per governate.

 

The other poll cited by bpors - by the Iraqi and Gulf Research centres - sampled 2000 in Baghdad, Najaf and Anbar. Baghdad has a population of around six million people, Najaf about half a million and Anbar 127,000. In a normal situation, a sample of 2000 might be indicative (eg, in an Australian city or town, asking people how they will vote) but in Baghdad the result will be influenced fundamentally by which side of the neighbourhood you visit. The polls can be useful but need to be viewed carefully. The biggest polls ever taken in Iraq involved 12 million and 10 million Iraqis in multi-party elections.  (Oh yes, and the Iraq/Gulf Research centres' poll, as reported in bpors' link, did not ask about an immediate withdrawal, so no conlcusions can be drawn from it on that issue).

 

Well, there you have it.

 

This time I'm going to put it in bold lettering: No more responses from me to bpors - I want to use my energies more productively.

 

Barry

bpors wrote:

BYork: "...and he also would have noticed that, contrary to what he says, the company doing the polling was not kept secret for security reasons at all. Here's the link (again!):"

Oooops! Wrong again.

D3 Systems backs my claim that the local firm that did the actual polling is  un-named:

"D³ has conducted more than 40 nation-wide quantitative surveys in Iraq and hundreds of focus groups. D³ has worked with a regional firm to create a unique nationwide team of Shia Arab, Sunni Arab, Kurdish, and other interviewers, both male and female. Working from multiple offices inside Iraq the local field company has conducted market, media and opinion studies"

http://www.d3systems.com/difficultresearch.htm

 

Name that local Iraqi company!! Oh, thats right, you can't. Its a secret. D3 won't say for security reasons.  We don't know the local Iraq company that collected the information. So we don't know their bonafides. We have to rely on D3's word. And they weren't ther. Oh well. So, you are wrong. As I told you before. Thanks for coming. No door prizes.

 

 

I dumbed down my last post to even include a simple analogy to help you out the embarrassing spectacle of  claiming poll figures that seems to say (by your logic) that the majority of Iraqis want a gradual removal of foriegn occupation troops over time. But you concede that this same poll say that they also want those same troops to be attacked, and they also think that these occupation troops are having a negative affect on the country and they are causing less security in the Iraq.

 

Most folk would have figured out that such are figures useless to go by. But not you. Your battle with reality goes on. I repeat the analogy for others:

 

"An analogy would be if 90% of the people have bananas as their favorite fruit. But a "loaded" questionaire asks only the preference between oranges and lemons. Say 60% in the questioaire claim they prefer oranges over lemons. Now only an idiot, or a member of the Orange Grower's Association, would conclude from such a poll that therefore oranges are more popular than bananas.  No proper figure would be result. And this is the case with the WPO poll on the immediate withdrawal question."

 

One thing Hitchens says right that seems to fit you to a tee:

"some people never learn, but then some people never intend to"

 

You are welcome not to reply as you promised. I'm through with trying to educate you to think clearly.

I'm still waiting for bpors, or anyone else, to post links to the polls that show that 90% "wanted the occupation forces out immediately".

Remember?

"But I only mentioned this fact - a fact, hopefully you now accept - because you were questioning the methodology of the other polls that showed 90% wanted the occupation forces out immediately".

Just post the links.

Barry

youngmarxist wrote: "In any case, the reason that this issue was brought up was that bpors was worried that the credentials of the poll could not be checked.

If bpors has any questions or doubts about the poll he would like answered, I suggest he calls Mr Kilncarslan and asks him, and brings the results back here.

Unless of course the whole issue was raised to distract attention from the discussion?"

 

youngmarxist,

Well, I'm back. And unlike you you, I did email KA Research in Turkey,

And I did ask them if they hired a private Iraqi company for the polling. As far as I can figure out they would need 30 to 40 pollsters to do over 1000 face to face interviews in just 4 days. But I did not receive an answer from them. It has been a week. And I can only go on the article (not available on the internet) where they (WPO Representative) would not reveal the name of the private firm in Iraq for security reasons. Now, you don't have to believe me. Ask them yourself. Maybe you will have better luck than me. It is your claim after all. I'm not calling you dishonest. I just think you are clinging onto something that is not so. I will go so far to agree they may have a representive there. But they don't have 30 or 40 employees in Iraq working for a couple of days every 6 to 12 months for them. That is not how these companies work. They hire local firms.

As I said, initially it was only mentioned in passing, and it is you and BYork who have clung onto it. You did not reply to my post about up to 4 billion dollars of Iraqi OIL money being stolen under American occupation in the first year alone in the same thread. You left that one well alone. So, please don't accuse me of trying to divert that thread. I merely answered your every post directed at me.

At any rate, as far as I can figure out your claims, you are saying the D3/KA Research supplied poll comes up with at least about 54 percent who do not want to see an immediate withdrawal. In the same breath it offers up 61 percent who want to see attacks on the occupation troops. There is something seriously wrong with a poll that comes up with them that figures, don't you think. Thats 115%, minimum, with the minimum number requiring that the entire 39% who wouldn't go so far as wanting the occupation soldiers attacked also want them to stay. Frankly, I don't see that.. LOL

Here is a poll that says 90% of Iraqis say the situation is worse in Iraq since the invasion and occupation. It is pretty safe to assume that these same would want them to leave ASAP if they had their way. I'm sure the vast majority of Iraqis would want to wake up tomorrow to see all the foriegn occupation troops gone, but they know the reality. This poll also makes more sense than  one that only looks from an American perspective and is requested by the State Department with that in mind.

http://www.gulfinthemedia.com/files/article_en/271345.pdf?PHPSESSID=8345720d87c77eb9bce9d722bb03236c

Now bpors cites a poll in which Q8 shows 50% in favor of immediate withdrawal and argues:

Here is a poll that says 90% of Iraqis say the situation is worse in Iraq since the invasion and occupation. It is pretty safe to assume that these same would want them to leave ASAP if they had their way.

I didn't think he would be able to top having cited a poll in support of his claim that 90% want immediate withdrawal and then turning around to denounce the poll he cited when it was pointed out that it didn't say what he claimed.

I was wrong. It is pretty safe to assume that there is no limit to the entertainment that bpors is capable of providing.

At any rate, as far as I can figure out your claims, you are saying the D3/KA Research supplied poll comes up with at least about 54 percent who do not want to see an immediate withdrawal. In the same breath it offers up 61 percent who want to see attacks on the occupation troops. There is something seriously wrong with a poll that comes up with them that figures, don't you think. Thats 115%, minimum, with the minimum number requiring that the entire 39% who wouldn't go so far as wanting the occupation soldiers attacked also want them to stay. Frankly, I don't see that.. LOL

Naturally the question arises: If only one in three Iraqis favors US withdrawal in the shortest possible time frame of six months, why then is support for attacks on US-led forces as high as 61 percent?

It is always difficult to know why people have certain attitudes, but some findings are strongly suggestive. A large majority of Iraqis—and a majority in all ethnic groups-- believes that the US plans to maintain permanent military bases in Iraq and would not withdraw its forces if the Iraqi government asked it to. Among those who support attacks this belief is especially high, while those who do not support attacks mostly believe that it is not the case. This suggests that some Iraqis approve of such attacks, not because they are so eager for the US-led forces to get out immediately, but because they want to put pressure on the US to get out eventually.

Indeed, among those who approve of such attacks, only 50 percent favor withdrawal in six months—though another 37 percent favor it in a year.

This poll also makes more sense than  one that only looks from an American perspective and is requested by the State Department with that in mind.

But they don't have 30 or 40 employees in Iraq working for a couple of days every 6 to 12 months for them. That is not how these companies work. They hire local firms.

As I said, initially it was only mentioned in passing, and it is you and Byork who have clung onto it. You did not reply to my post about up to 4 billion dollars of Iraqi Oil money being stolen under American occupation in the first year alone in the same thread. You left that one well alone....

Christian Aid has estimated that up to $4bn more may have been exported and is unaccounted for. If so, this would have created an off-the-books fund that both the Americans and their Iraqi allies could use with impunity to cover expenditures they would rather keep secret - among them the occupation costs, which were rising far beyond what the Bush administration could comfortably admit to Congress and the international community.

: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1522983,00.html

youngmarxist: First of all, 63% (not 54%) of people chose to say they want withdrawal to not start in the next six months.

Now, if you had paid attention to this thread, you would find, in the very comment where I apologised to you at owenss request for being wrong on a point of fact, this quote from page 8 of the poll report:

 

OK, 63 percent then. Its your claim.

Lets see, 61 plus 63. Thats 124 percent! And of course a sensible person would add on to that figure, as it does not include those who do not go so far as to want attacks on occupation forces, but nonetheless want the them out right away. But lets stick with 124 percent.

Now, I say that any person under occupation who supports attacks on occupation soldiers would want occupation troops out immediately if you asked them their preference. I also say any Iraqis who don't mind having occupation troops around for at least 6 months would not support attacks on them. This is simple clear thinking. Black is black, one metre equals one metre. There will be no overlap, except the tiniest of margins from misunderstanding, or a sense of humour from the participants, maybe. The two groups have to be mutually exclusive. Or the obvious contradiction would have to explain itself.

And what an hilarious "explanation" the poll report offers, that you seem think is good enough. Yes, I read it. Twice. And explanation like that you have to read twice to make sure thats what they mean. In a nutshell, to requote:

"This suggests that some Iraqis approve of such attacks, not because they are so eager for the US-led forces to get out immediately, but because they want to put pressure on the US to get out eventually."

 

That is a pathetic attempt to disguise a glaring contradiction in the figures that cannot be explained. To rephrase the argument from the poll report page 8: About 30 percent of Iraqis would want them to stay for six months or more,  and believe it will help stability and reduce lawless militias. But these excact same Iraqis also want bands of lawless militias going about bombing occupation forces to drive them out of their country. Eventually.

Gee, youngmarxist, that makes sense. Golly, what an interesting poll.

youngmarxist: You mean the new poll you cite in a failed attempt to make your case (see arthur's comment above), is better than the old once that you quoted and then turned against when it failed to back up your argument, without any admission that you got it wrong?

Your argument and assertions about KA Research don't mean much. Why couldn't KA Research's Iraq office employ 30 or 40 casual employees to do the polling? Perhaps you could tell me what, in your no doubt broad experience, leads you to conclude that:

First up, I quoted the figures I did from that poll. I did not touch the ones you have pushed which gave you 63 percent of Iraqis wanting occupation soldiers marching up and down their streets for the next 6 months or more. On closer inspection I can see that this poll is fked. Mainly thanks to you for pushing forward silly figures that don't make sense, but are there in the poll just the same. My only guess would be that because they are asking from an American perspective, there is a misunderstanding in some parts. For instance, maybe the answers to thre withdrawal timeline questions are what the Iraqis think will happen, and not their preference. Just a hunch. I don't know. But the poll report's explanation for the contradiction is stupid.

Whether you believe KA Research are there in Iraq with about 30-40 employees working 8 days a year, or whether they have miraculously just created a casual employment business that employs pollsters for 8 days a year, doesn't really matter. (BTW, what else does this casual employment agency KA Reseach has in Iraq do for the rest of the year, hmmm?).

I already told you, they hired a local polling firm that would have to adhere to KA Reseach's methods  and standards. Thats how it is done. Companies that claim to have only a little over 200 employees and operate in 50 countries like KA Research say they do, are hardly going to have 30 or 40 employees in just one Middle Eastern country. But I can't tell you that. You know everything. You can't be told. I am hopeful others will read this thread for a lesson in clear thinking. Its been fun.

youngmarxist: Bpors' reasoning is, again, thoroughly dishonest, and there is no response to my reply about the allegedly missing oil money, even though bpors complained previously that we ignored this issue.

As soon as I took up bpors' point, and asked for more evidence, what I said was ignored, and bpors simply repeated the same assertions that I have already shown to be wrong.

Anyone who wants to see my reply to what bpors says above should read my comments above in the thread. I have already addressed bpors' points, and bpors has offered no actual argument to demonstrate that what I say is wrong in his post above.

 

Arthur: I didn't think he would be able to top having cited a poll in support of his claim that 90% want immediate withdrawal and then turning around to denounce the poll he cited when it was pointed out that it didn't say what he claimed.

Arthur,

It is obvious from the start of my comments on this subject I was basing my belief that 90% want your butchering, torturing, imperialist heroes out ASAP by the fact that 90% say they prefer Saddam and the sanctions to Bush's Butchers. How many is it now? How many thousands of Iraqis are dead at the hands of these occupiers.The same occupying forces who also armed and trained many of the Shiite militias who roam around in Ministry of Interior uniforms and that in their turn butcher even more Iraqi civilians.

I didn't say the polls said it excactly. I'm saying I say it. I claim it as an obvious truth from the polling. The fact that 90 percent of Iraqis say that things were better in days of Saddam and the sanctions then they are under Bush's occupation tells me straight away that 90 percent want them out ASAP, if the had their druthers.

You talk about the 50% in the poll that go straight to the "Tomorrow morning I want to wake up and they aren'