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 • white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by kerrb at 2007-09-30 06:05 PM

White guilt makes our Third World enemies into colored victims, people whose problems--even the tyrannies they live under--were created by the historical disruptions and injustices of the white West. We must "understand" and pity our enemy even as we fight him. And, though Islamic extremism is one of the most pernicious forms of evil opportunism that has ever existed, we have felt compelled to fight it with an almost managerial minimalism that shows us to be beyond the passions of war--and thus well dissociated from the avariciousness of the white supremacist past.


Anti-Americanism, whether in Europe or on the American left, works by the mechanism of white guilt. It stigmatizes America with all the imperialistic and racist ugliness of the white Western past so that America becomes a kind of straw man, a construct of Western sin. (The Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons were the focus of such stigmatization campaigns.) Once the stigma is in place, one need only be anti-American in order to be "good," in order to have an automatic moral legitimacy and power in relation to America. (People as seemingly disparate as President Jacques Chirac and the Rev. Al Sharpton are devoted pursuers of the moral high ground to be had in anti-Americanism.) This formula is the most dependable source of power for today's international left. Virtue and power by mere anti-Americanism. And it is all the more appealing since, unlike real virtues, it requires no sacrifice or effort--only outrage at every slight echo of the imperialist past.


Today words like "power" and "victory" are so stigmatized with Western sin that, in many quarters, it is politically incorrect even to utter them. For the West, "might" can never be right. And victory, when won by the West against a Third World enemy, is always oppression. But, in reality, military victory is also the victory of one idea and the defeat of another. Only American victory in Iraq defeats the idea of Islamic extremism. But in today's atmosphere of Western contrition, it is impolitic to say so.

- White Guilt and the Western Past by Shelby Steele

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by Cyberman at 2007-09-30 10:27 PM

It's the first time I've heard it suggested that race is a factor which is working against the US in Iraq.

A recent study has concluded that there has been over a million civilian deaths in Iraq since the invasion.

http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=67

Whatever the true number of casualities, would you say that these deaths are given more or less pominence in the mainstream media, than a similar number of white deaths would be given?

Hint: If you are having trouble answering this question, take a look at the treatment, in the American mainstream media, of the New Orleans casualities after Hurricane Katrina. I would say that the consensus of opinion is that the US Federal government would have been slightly more concerned to pick up the bodies if they'd been white.


 

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by kerrb at 2007-10-01 05:34 AM
cyberman,

Your response is off target.

White guilt is primarily a morality argument emanating from the pseudo left (yourself). Remember the slogan, "Not in my name". That slogan is nothing more than an evasion of responsibility, analysis and hard thought. You respond in part with your body count theory of whether a war is just or not. Your body count is meant to appeal to what emotion? I think you are saying that supporters of the war should feel guilty over so  many deaths.

If the body count was lower then you would support the war? Think of wars you regard as just and then run your body count theories past them.

How has the media treated death in Iraq and the Middle East? In this regard the media does seem to have tapped into the pseudo left mentality - our governments actions are causing death - stop thinking at this point

When Saddam was killing millions there was very little coverage. As soon as the US is involved in a war there is intense scrutiny and accountability requirements. There is far more critical, detailed scrutiny  in our media of what the US does than what al qaeda does. Seems to fit Shelby Steele's analysis.

Given the difficulty of maintaining a war effort without public support at home then this does become a major obstacle to continuing the war against what Shelby Steele correctly describes as "Islamic extremism ... one of the most pernicious forms of evil opportunism that has ever existed". Two wars have to be fought - the war for public opinion and the war on the battlefield - it is well understood by al qaeda that the pseudo left is their ally.

(( as an aside in general the media works on what sells the most - ie. a story about a gay, black, disabled coal  miner trapped down a mine in Antarctica for 4 days would be front page news  ))

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by Lupin3 at 2007-10-01 12:10 PM
Steele is at a loss to explain why the most powerful military in the history of the planet is struggling to put down the various insurgencies in Iraq.  He senses that the US has not brought it's full might to bear on it's enemies, and attempts to explain this condition through his "white guilt" theory.  In this context, he mentions the democratic impulse just long enough to disparage it, suggesting that though it may be beneficial in the long run, it is really little more than lip service by white elites to portray the Iraq war as "something that uplifts and transforms the poor brown nation (thus dissociating us from the white exploitations of old)."  The reason for this is because "...today the United States cannot go to war in the Third World simply to defeat a dangerous enemy."

This is a semi-naked defense of outright imperialism, the delineation of which, it seems to me, Cyberman will fully agree with.  The points of departure between he and Steele are many, of course, and Cyberman may well protest these very facts as part of the basis of his anti-war position.  In my opinion, however, this distinction amounts to little more than an intra-orthodox argument between "paleo-" and "neo-" imperialisms, with Cyberman having obliquely sided with the former.

It must be said, however, that those of us who supported the overthrow of the Hussein regime have sided, rather more than obliquely, with the latter.  Much of what I've read at LS critiques the pseudo-left as reflexively relying upon anti-Americanism as the basis - even the sole basis - of it's position on the Iraq war.  But is this anti-Americanism not symptomatic of a deeper debate about post-colonialism in the developing world?  In my view, the war critics have refused to admit that their policies would have extended and entrenched the colonial apparatus of the status quo ante - exactly as the Baker Institute for Public Policy pointed out, and advocated for.  Some have recognized this problem, as illustrated in Bernard Kouchner's famous comment, "Non a la guerre, non a Saddam Hussein."  In retrospect, this seems little more than an ephemeral wish.  All the effort spent on establishing the oil motive for invasion by the war critics is wasted, as that motive existed in any case for either course of action.

But all this goes directly to Bill's point about the ways in which the war has been represented in media.  It is true, as Cyberman points out, that the cost of the war for Iraqis, in human terms, has been massively under-represented.  It is also true, as Bill suggests, that the actions of Coalition troops are grossly over-represented, in terms of press coverage, than those of the various insurgents or al Qaeda.  One hears of the Iraqi
narrative in this war only in terms of abstract mortality estimates for which the Coalition bears "responsibility," or in the continuing flow of staged terror events (orchestrated by  nebulous and ambiguous actors, always), which sometimes target Coalition troops.  Here is where the real source of "white guilt" reveals itself: in that the Coalition, having established the conditions for the violence now unfolding, is "responsible" for the actions of all combatants.  But this is simply ethnocentrism unbounded.  The West becomes immobilized by the fear of unintended consequences, of "blowback," while Iraqis,
portrayed as unfit to govern themselves and unintelligibly byzantine, as mysteriously oriental, become the tragic victims of Western hegemony.

It is a sign of the pseudo-left that this "white guilt" has subverted it's post-modern and post-colonial origin in multi-culturalism, which sought to empower what Edward Said
identified as "the other," exchanging the evils of the myth of the prostrate orient with another, equally evil myth, of the necessity for a penitent, tragically omnipotent West.  It is breathtaking how the Arabists at the CIA and State Department, together with the pseudo-left, have leveraged Western responsibility for the situation in Iraq into a policy
advocating it's abandonment.
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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by Cyberman at 2007-10-01 04:54 PM

Comrades Bill and Lupin3,

The race arguent is  just a red herring. The British army faced similar frustrations in Northern Ireland against an enemy which was racially almost identical and spoke the same language. They had the technical ability to wipe out the IRA in a matter of months, but, for obvious political reasons they couldn't.

Let's get back to the basics of the conflict. Since when has the Iraqi war been about Al Qaeda or Islamic extremism? I know the Bush administration has been desperately trying to find links, but as the CIA, and others, have repeatedly told them, there really weren't any. The original justification, in case we have all forgotten, was WMDs. Later on the story shifted that the US were staying to help the Iraqis build democracy. The snag with this argument is that the majority of Iraqis don't want them there and are of the opinion that the presence of American forces makes the security situation in Iraq worse not better.

So why do they stay? Leaving aside all official US lines and arguments, we've learned in the last four years they follow one discredited lie with another,  we, as Marxists,  have to look a little more at the economics of the situation. Is it possible that the fighting isn't so much about religion  and sectarian differences, as we are led to believe, but more about the control of Iraq's oil assets? The presence of Al Qaeda may be tolerated, for now, by the Iraqis, but only so long as they are useful militarily. 

PS I've made this point before. The left, which includes many Americans of course,  aren't anti-American, per se. More precisely, we oppose American (USA)  capitalist imperialism.

 

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by anita at 2007-10-02 08:13 AM
Cyber,
'The presence of al Qaeda may be tolerated for now...but only so long as they are useful militarily'.  That is nonsense, overall, Iraqis are not tolerant of al Qaeda, a shrinking minority support them.  Al Qaeda are a major part of the security problem you freely admit 'Iraqis' are concerned about.  At least 80% of Iraqis are fundamentally opposed to al Qaeda, and of the Sunni population I'd bet that 90% of them now detest them as well.  So that reduces it to about 2% support for al Qaeda.

Cyber says, 'Since when has the Iraqi war been about Al Qaeda or Islamic extremism? I know the Bush administration has been desperately trying to find links, but as the CIA, and others, have repeatedly told them, there really weren't any.'


It is wrong to say that there is a unified position within the CIA, and they all said no links.

It is well known that there was, and is a political split within the CIA - beginning after the 1993 bombing of the WTC .  I found this controversial 1995/1996 piece by Laurie Mylroie that is informative about the actions and consciousness of agencies  involved regarding what to do after the WTC bombing in 1993 and it definitely informs subsequent debates.

Of course none of this would be on the agenda today if Saddam Hussein had not previously invaded Kuwait.




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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by Cyberman at 2007-10-02 03:42 PM

Comrade Anita,

I don't disagree, in principle, with what you saying about Al-Qaeda. Their popular support in Iraq, such as it is, is small and decreasing. However, this is not what the mainstream US media are actually saying. We shouldn't be surprised that they are trying to mislead rather than inform of course.

 

I suspect this article may well be getting close to the the truth. http://www.alternet.org/story/62042/?page=2
It analyses the Iraqi conflict in terms of the differences between separatists and nationalists. The nationalists want a strong central secular government but with no privatisation of Iraqi oil fields. The separatists are more motivated by religious and sectarian differences.

 

This puts the Americans in a difficult position and, faced with the prospect of losing 'their' oil profits , they've opted to support the separatists including  al-Maliki and Al-Qaeda!

 

 

 

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by dalek at 2007-10-02 04:06 PM

Cyberman, Anita, The Sectarian violence in Iraq suits the US. It allows the US to claim that if they leave the situation will get even worse. It opens up the prospect of a weak and divided Iraq with huge oil reserves that will be even easier to plunder. Also, of course it allows the US to claim that the "brown people" are clearly unable to govern themselves, the white mans burden writ large- once again.

Dalek 

 

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by Cyberman at 2007-10-02 04:47 PM

Comrade Dalek,

I don't think it does suit the Americans. They would have been hoping that the oil and profits would have been flowing freely by now, but instead production has been crippled by sabotage and security problems.

Given general level of optimism that preceeded the invasion, the "cakewalk" comments etc, you'd have to conclude that the US administration has completely miscalculated.

It's quite ironic that they've now realised that they are being forced to , in effect side with Al Qaeda and the separatists, to avoid the alternative of setting up a government which was strongly central, secular, and believed in the nationalisation of the means of production! 

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by kerrb at 2007-10-02 04:49 PM
The topic of this thread is white guilt (shelby steele)

Cyberman's second reply is off topic except for the first 3 sentences - and so is all of anita's response to the other parts of cyberman's response. And then cyberman responds to anita's response without making any effort to connect back to the purpose of the thread. Dalek's response is on topic, he refers directly to race.

Sometimes people go off on tangents and it contributes positively in some way but in my assessment what is happening is that Cyberman is just repeating stuff he has said elsewhere. He admits this:
PS I've made this point before
There are other threads available on this site where you can state your opinions on the reasons for the iraq war.

If you are interested in the topic of this thread then please contribute - and include interesting tangents as part of your response, by all means. However responding to tangents is usually not welcome since that will end up destroying the purpose of the thread, which is to explore and evaluate Shelby Steele's white guilt theory.

Shelby Steele has written a book, White Guilt: How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era

You can read random pages out of the book using the amazon Surprise me button, or read the readers reviews and decide whether the book is worth reading in full.

Thank you lupin3 for a spot on analysis of shelby steele, his weaknesses and strengths.
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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by kerrb at 2007-10-02 09:52 PM
dalek:
The Sectarian violence ... allows the US to claim that the "brown people" are clearly unable to govern themselves, the white mans burden writ large- once again
The absence of stated racism does not prove that racism does not exist. The US never states that Iraqis - the "brown people" -  cannot govern themselves. In fact they always state the opposite. However, because of the past legacy of white imperialism the possibility that they still harbour such beliefs lives on - if not in the minds of US Imperialism at least in the minds of people like dalek and others who describe themselves as politically left. That old fashioned racism is still there as a dominant driver of policy they think, its just not stated openly. In the era of white guilt the US has to somehow prove that they are not still racist - even while supporting the emergence of democracy in Iraq.

Imperialism can still be imperialism - without being racist. Imperialism can still be imperialism - and be supportive of democracy in Iraq.

So dalek's observation (inverted racism) is evidence that Shelby Steele's theory is correct. It's pretty funny to describe the actions of Condoleezza Rice as the white man's burden, but then we can reflexively condemn her as another "Uncle Tom" or maybe an Aunt Tamara. Shelby Steele is attempting to make the point that these characterisations no longer accurately describe reality, that our thinking and analysis has to move on.
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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by Cyberman at 2007-10-03 12:17 AM

Comrade Bill,

 

I'm not quite sure why you accused me of going off topic. My previous contribution was very much dealing with this point made in your opening post.

 

"Only American victory in Iraq defeats the idea of Islamic extremism."

 

Which, apart from not being directly about race, is just nonsense of course!

 

To be fair to the Americans, and that's not a phrase I like to use too often :), I don't think they are being racist either. They just want their oil profits! The left aren't being any more racist either in supporting Iraqi independence any more than we were in supporting Vietnamese independence. There's no point in arguing about the invasion any more . We can't change history. What matters now is that over 70% of Iraqis want the Americans to either leave immediately or make an orderly withdrawal over the next 12 months. If the Americans do believe in democracy..........

 

 

 

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by keza at 2007-10-03 03:09 AM
Cyberman, stop it!  You are just ranting here.  In fact it's close to spamming - you seem to think that if you just say the same thing over and over (and OVER) again people will be convinced by force of repetition.

This forum is for people who want to mount serious arguments in support of what they think.   If you keep just posting these little diatribes I will start deleting them.

Bill posted a quote from the Shelby Steele article (and a link to the full article) because he wanted to start a discussion about the views expressed in that article.

In my view there's a lot wrong with what Steele says, but I'm happy to discuss it because doing so enables us to think more clearly about our own views.

First, the thing that jumps out of Steele's article (if you read the whole thing) is that he is upset that the US feels restricted in unleashing military force because of "white guilt". He's right that the US feels restricted, but he's wrong that it's primarily  because of namby pamby white guilt.

Contrary to Steele, I think it is good that US imperialism is no longer free to behave as it used to.  That is a major reason why I have never thought they went into Iraq for "imperial conquest".  Those days are past and I'm glad of it.  It is true of course that it is the pseudo-left which pushes  the idea of white guilt and characterises  the oppressed as helpless victims in need of an army of social workers,  but that's a largely separate issue.  The main thing however is that the people of the world will no longer put up with overt imperial domination.  I don't see that as a problem.

I disagree that what he calls the "minimalism" involved in the US military effort can be traced back to  "white guilt". It is more to do with the fact that it's an entirely different type of war from previous ones - the US is in Iraq to oversee a democratic revolution, not to defeat the al quada and other reactionary forces  in decisive military battle. 


This means that (like you) I disagree with him when he says that "Only American victory in Iraq defeats the idea of Islamic extremism." . That's nonsense! Only the democratic revolution can defeat it.  I doubt that this will be widely perceived as "an American victory".  It will be a people's victory and the US is not going to come out of it as a stronger superpower.  That's why the most conservative elements of the US foreign policy establishment are in a panic. I don't give two hoots if the outcome looks like a US defeat so long as the democratic revolution succeeds.  Bush et al know that this is the price they might have to pay, but they also know that they have to risk it.

The other factor in the minimalism of the US war effort is  the reluctance of the US people to accept American casualties  - that is related - in one part of the population only -  to perceptions that it's a bad war against poor brown people. However that is  not   the whole story. A lot of Americans oppose the war because they  think it is a waste to spend US blood and treasure on a backward country (and that attitude is the opposite of white guilt). Both these reasons for opposing the war are reactionary.

So I don't think that the US government is submitting very much to the white guilt brigade in its conduct of the war.  It's main source of trouble comes not from pseudo-left conservatism but from openly right wing conservatism.  The fact is that the traditional American right is not behind this war.  

And Cyberman,  it doesn't bother me in the least that when Iraqis are asked whether they want the Americans to stay or go, that the majority say that they want them "to leave within 12 months".  I'd be worried if they weren't saying something like that.  My impression of the various (sometimes contradictory) polls is simply that the Iraqis are making it quite clear that they only accept the US presence for the time being.  They know that  its a necessity.  But they are looking forward to being free of them - as they should. This in no way demonstrates that the US is there "for the oil" rather than because it saw the need to enable democracy to take hold there.

But this thread isn't specifically about whether the war is a grab for oil.  If you want to keep contributing to this thread, please take up issues related to the Steele article in a direct way.






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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by Lupin3 at 2007-10-03 08:55 AM
Bill and Kerry have drawn out an important distinction in raising Steele's conservative use of "white guilt."  Though clearly emanating from the left in it's attempt to restrain the economic and military advantages of the West over the developing world, Steele's article illustrates an attempt by conservatives to project the failings of their own imperialist policies onto their political opposition.  Reading between the lines, it is easy to imagine that Steele might just as easily have said "If it weren't for these Socialist bastards we could really clean up the place!"  This is a red herring, as Cyberman suggested, though for reasons that have nothing whatever to do with the conflict in Ireland.  Rather, it is a ruse designed to distract attention from the failures of their own policies and the difficult necessity of working to support and foster democracy in Iraq.  Thus Steele can comment on Bush's sincerity in his desire to bring democracy to Iraq (what the pseudos decry as "messianism") while simultaneously arguing that the real victory must be won in blood.  But this is nothing more than the nostalgia of a paleo-imperialist for the good old days of rule by military proxy.

So there are two lies at the heart of this.  One, that "white guilt" is the root of the difficulties faced by the Coalition in Iraq, and two, that absent such artificial limitations to it's strategy, the Coalition would be free to wreak havoc on it's enemies in Iraq and so defeat "the idea of Islamic extremism."  The pseudo-left senses the first lie, but not the second.  That is to say, they recognize the falsity of the idea that simply smashing Iraq can be a means of defeating the ideology of Islamic extremism, and it is from this view which springs forth calls to address the root causes of terrorism (notably diminished these days) as well as the criticism that war on Iraq (and by extension, Afghanistan) only deepens the swamp by breeding more extremists.  While they realize the essential absurdity of this position, and disclaim it's ideological emptiness with pretensions to Bush's insanity (see the thread on Jay Rosen and Ron Suskind entitled "Creating Reality or Reality Based") they do not accept that this is an ideological feint, that it is more than being merely false, but a lie.

I think this is an essential point of disagreement between the anti-war pseudo-left, and LS and the pro-war left.  By failing to understand the extent to which real democrats had acheived influence in the White House, the pseudo-left became incapable of accepting that regime-change was being forced upon the foreign policy establishment as well as upon the Ba'athists.  Thus, the question for them in 2003 would have been between supporting the current regime in Iraq or a devastating war which they believed would have resulted in the institution of a regime similar to that which had been deposed - Saddamism without Saddam.  They chose therefore to forego a costly war and deal with the consequences, as they perceived them, which necessarily included support for the Hussein regime.

"White guilt" manifested here, as well.  Beyond merely situating itself within an ideological defense of Tikriti fascists, elements of the pseudo-left went further, having advocated for the defeat of the Coalition at the hands of brown-skinned resistance fighters.  Tariq Ali went so far as to defend the left credentials of the resistance by suggesting they were irreligious - being remnants of the smashed Ba'athist regime!  Fred Halliday debunked this absurd perversion, but this view remains a telling illustration of the subversion of post-colonialist ideals, in which murderous, fascistic totalitarians are gifted the moral garland of the title "oppressed freedom fighters" in their struggle to maintain their privileged position as imperial middle-men for their one-time white masters, now turned enemies.  So far now from restraining Western imperialism, "white guilt" restrains the pseudo-left from identifying those with whom they ought to ally, who instead they demean as quislings, and leads them to compromise their own principles in common cause with brutal tyrants - albeit brown-skinned ones.

What to say about a pseudo-left which advocates for the very outcome on which they had based their opposition to the war?  I mentioned earlier the pointlessness of developing a criticism of the war based on an oil theory which can as easily be said of the decision to go to war as it might have been to a decision to retrench the Hussein regime.  Dalek echoes this pointlessness with his comments that the ensuing violence in Iraq serves the purpose of exploiting it's oil wealth, and that the elections there are invalidated by the very presence of the soldiers who helped make them possible.  It was once a staple of the Saddamism without Saddam theory that the old ruling class would be reinstated as soon as possible in order to secure the oil infrastructure and bring Iraq's oil industry back online.  The failure to do this - indeed, the conscious decision to break this option permanently by disbanding the Ba'athist army and barring the Ba'athist elite from important roles in government - lead Noam Chomsky to comment on the US having forgot how to install a puppet government!
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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by dalek at 2007-10-03 04:15 PM

Was it "white guilt" that allowed Shelby Steele, Condolissa Rice, Colin Powell and a host of other black Americans to rise from the  swamp of oppression in the 60's? Maybe; but are we now supposed to believe that the US has abandoned its old Imperial ways, it's white supremacist world view and suddenly embraced global democracy? Certainly Capitalism requires that the old feudal regimes be destroyed and this is a good thing. The problem that I have is that while it enforces a form of democracy abroad the US is flat out eroding internally the very democratic principles that it pretends to uphold. The same democratic principles that have allowed the Steels, Rices, Powells et al to rise up out of the swamp. Steels answer seems to be to use even more state power and military force on the "inferior races" in the name of a "war on terror" while he carefully closes the door behind himself.

Dalek

 

 

 

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by kerrb at 2007-10-03 05:34 PM
I think Steele has taken a basically correct analysis of the yet to be completed civil rights movement in the US and incorrectly projected that onto the world stage with regard to US military power - his war fighting minimalism thesis. Correctly critiqued by keza and lupin3.

White supremacy / (hypocrisy about equality) was refuted / exposed by the civil rights movement. This created a moral authority deficit for white rulers. Whites need to acknowledge historical racism to atone for it. Then they lose moral authority over all "social justice" issues and become vulnerable on that front.

This remains an issue in Australia with Howard's refusal to say "Sorry" for the previous crimes of whites against aboriginals. Many Australians see this as the central issue of Howard's alleged racism. I have heard that the largest demonstration ever held in Australia was the initial "Sorry day" demo. It's a prominent feature of the Australian psyche.

In the US (but not in Australia) affirmative action for blacks (eg. for college admission) has been put in place as part of the atonement package.

Steele's analysis  here is a bit different from what dalek is saying:
"white guilt" that allowed Shelby Steele, Condolissa Rice, Colin Powell and a host of other black Americans to rise from the  swamp of oppression"
The social impact of "affirmative action" is bad for blacks. They are treated as inferior, not capable of competing in an equal contest. One form of "black consciousness" is to respond by opting out of that deal. In this thinking racism is seen as structurally embedded in capitalism for all time.

Whites throw blacks the bone of affirmative action. Blacks take the bait and then whites have proved they are not racist and re-establish their moral right to rule. Some blacks respond by saying we refuse to compete at all in your white hegemonist system.

Shelby Steele, Condolissa Rice, Colin Powell did not respond in that way. By fighting their way to the top they demonstrated that they are as good as any white within this system. Blacks taking responsibility for their own personal destiny goes against the  white obligation - black entitlement faustian pact of white guilt

Reference:
- White guilt, victimhood and the quest for a radical centre, pp. 14-18


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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by dalek at 2007-10-03 08:30 PM

Bill, show me one place where I even mentioned "affirmative action" why are you so desperate that you will conflate basic human rights with "affirmative action". The rights that were won by black Americans were the basic rights to not ride in the back of the bus, to go to any school they want and even the vote all the stuff that you take for granted and all the democratic rights that you say you want for all the world. WTF has "affirmative action" to do with this? Or in your universe is any concession of rights to a black person affirmative action?

For the record I too believe that the affirmative action programs that were put in place in the US in the 70's were basically bad policy.

Dalek  

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 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by kerrb at 2007-10-03 10:23 PM
dalek,

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth and accept your "bad policy" analysis of affirmative action. What you did say was:
Was it "white guilt" that allowed Shelby Steele, Condolissa Rice, Colin Powell and a host of other black Americans to rise from the  swamp of oppression in the 60's? Maybe
In response I explained that Shelby Steele, Condolissa Rice, Colin Powell rising to positions of authority in the US was not explained by "white guilt" because it is Steele's theory and affirmative action is the white obligation part of the white obligation  - black entitlement faustian pact. My explanation was directed at your lack of understanding of Steele's theory. I say again (as in the Pearson thread) that you sometimes express opinions without fully understanding the positions of your opponents.

You also say:
Steels answer seems to be to use even more state power and military force on the "inferior races" in the name of a "war on terror" while he carefully closes the door behind himself.
Why mention "inferior races", that is in your head not in the mind of US ruling elites. You are persisting here in your argument that racism is a driver of US policy, although you have now dropped your ridiculous "white man's burden" phrase. To justify that I think you need to explain how Shelby Steele (not to mention Condolissa Rice, Colin Powell)  "carefully closes the door behind himself". How has (have)  he (they) closed the door? If blacks can occupy the highest office in the USA on their own merits (without affirmative action) then obviously browns can self govern in Iraq

Your words reveal  that you have not dropped the idea that racism is still a driver of US policy. Why else do you use phrases like "inferior races", "white man's burden" and "allows the US to claim that the "brown people" are clearly unable to govern themselves"?
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Posts: 446

 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by kerrb at 2007-10-05 12:31 AM
In response to a discussion on a particular topic - white guilt (shelby steele) - cyberman raised some very general points about race, class and Marxism without making any direct reference to shelby steele's theories or without providing any evidence (direct or implied) that he had read shelby steele's paper.

Cyberman is doing this in a number of threads - very frequently raising general issues or making general appeals to "Marxism" in response to quite specific and focused discussion.

A few issues issues here:
  1. He is often making general points but not supporting them with detail, a formulaic approach.
  2. He often repeats himself, over and over
  3. He posts very frequently so that visitors to the site are often exposed to his repeated, generalist waffle and have to make an extra effort to discover more substantial material.
It is true that race, class and Marxism is an important topic. It is also true that that topic has been addressed, not in an all round way, but in a particular way in the white guilt (shelby steele) thread.

It is not appropriate for Cyberman to continue to behave in this way - generalist, repeated, frequent - when we are trying to have more detailed and focused discussion

The reason we have separate topics is to enable discussion with a different focus. If Cyberman had his way many of our  threads / topics would degenerate into mirrors of each other, indistinguishable. It also puts supporters of this site in a difficult situation - to ignore his trivia (leaving a poor quality post at the top of the tree - bad for the site) or respond to it even though he might be repeating himself for the nth time.

For this reason (and after being warned) Cyberman's latest generalisations are being moved  to the junk forum. Anyone interested in his thoughts can still read them if they want to.

_________________________
Bill Kerr
Manager
Posts: 446

 • Re: white guilt (Shelby Steele)

Posted by Lupin3 at 2007-10-05 01:29 PM
This thread seems unclear as to which direction it wants to go in, having shifted focus from Steele's argument about the cultural criticism of "white guilt" and it's impact on Iraq strategy, to a digression on the relationship between race and class and the question of structural racism in the US political elite.  As the article by Steele addressed the Iraq issue particularly, it would seem to follow that this thread focus on that aspect.  This suggests the opportunity for a second thread on race and class issues which, if it hasn't already been created, would certainly benefit some of our less well read members (such as myself).

Also, as I've just mentioned (and have certainly betrayed in my writing) I am an ideological naif, and as a result certainly suffer from a patchwork education with sometimes incongruous sources.  Your patience and guidance in this is greatly appreciated.

Having said that, I'd like to introduce an article I came across today at logosjournal.com.  I think it touches on some of the issues we've culled from Steele's articles, in fact echoing my reference to Said's orientalist critique.  The writer,  Emad El-din Aysha (in conversation with Dr. Hazem Khairy), has this to say:

"...The Arab Self is alienated and the agent of alienation is none other the Arab Other that uses culture and religion to maintain its stranglehold on the Arab Self.

This view goes beyond strict economic and political conceptualizations of class conflict and elite-mass relations and antagonisms because it puts the onus on culture – portraying Arabs as not just any normal group of oppressed Third Worlders. They belong to an extended family that they identity with - the Arab ‘nation’ and Muslim umma - and their elites use these abstract notions as political tools to deny them their cultural and intellectual rights. That is, the rights to avail of Western modernity and allow them to think for themselves, decide what their opinion is on matters as diverse and critical as Islam, constitutions, human and women’s rights, Arab sovereignty and human rights supervision, cultural globalization, capitalism, republics vs. monarchies, etc. etc.

It was the Arab Other who aided and abetted the Americans, whether the neo-cons or the oil lobby, to the detriment of the Arab Self. More to the point, what Palast’s work makes clear is that Arab reformers and revolutionaries, the genuine ones, are stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand the neo-cons actually want to liberate them from their oppressive regimes (for whatever reasons) yet are the same people who will certainly wreck their economies. On the other hand, the oil lobby, which is comfortable enough with oppressive regimes, is willing to share the economic cake with the common-folk, even bolstering the anti-American ideological cushion that helps prop up these regimes, giving the masses some sense of identity and authenticity in a world awash with American-dominated cultural signifiers."


Earlier I suggested the failure of certain parts of the left to distinguish between proto-democrats and would-be-again tyrants was a subversion of Said's concept of "the Other."  Here Aysha distinguishes between the Arab Other, a name he gives to the Arab elite in their various countries, and the Arab Self, which denotes the unvoiced and alienated Arab masses.  This is a more sophisticated viewpoint than what Tariq Ali has expressed, which seemed to amount to little more than "the enemies of the Coalition are my friends," and while his own biases cloud the issues (de-Ba'athification is tellingly called de-Sunnification), he is obviously open to the idea that elements within the Bush administration were working to release the Iraqi people from their oppression by the once Western sponsored tyrant elite.

Aysha's larger point is that the Arab world needs a "de-alienation" of the masses to the elite, that this cultural revolution must come from the ground up.  The neocons are viewed as primarily a mouth-piece for Israel, while the Oil Lobby is situated firmly in the Arabist camp.  This puts these two groups in conflict, a conflict which should be exploited.

It is much to his credit that, while stating the neocons are all "utterly pro-Israel," Aysha recognizes the flip-side of orientalism, realizing the need to dissect the "Western Other" and in so doing, sees an opening to advance Arab interests in common cause with at least some neocons (Wolfowitz is mentioned at length).

In fact, Aysha's article seems to fit so well with the view advanced at LS that one almost expects a degree of support for the war effort, or at least a grudging respect for the ways in which it has created some of the conditions necessary for his larger goals to occur.  One finds instead resignation, and hostility toward it.  Various comments, such as "de-Sunnification" and the implication that the newly representative government amounts to little more than Saddamism without the Sunnis, suggest a lingering remnant of reactive sectarianism, to some extent.  Barring this, I see little here standing in the way of an excellent critique of the popular conceptions of "white guilt" which seems to very much accommodate the ideas here at LS.

Lupin3
Member
Posts: 53

 

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