• saying sorry
• saying sorry
Posted by
kerrb
at
2008-02-12 05:17 AM
The Kevin Rudd apology:
1) does not identify the reason some (not all) aboriginal children were stolen - cultural genocide 2) says sorry without compensation so in that way is insincere and unjust The following articles by Marcia Langton and Noel Pearson analyse these issues in more depth: even the hard men know, it must be said by Marcia Langton when words aren't enough by Noel Pearson The Pearson article which analyses the apology from a number of different angles is particularly good:
"My view is that Aboriginal people's lives were stolen by history.
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
dalek
at
2008-02-12 03:30 PM
Bill, If you had listened on past the formal bit of the apology you would have heard Rudd specifically target the federal and state Parliaments for passing and sanctioning what he made clear were genocidal laws. There is absolutely no doubt that the intent of these laws was to "breed out" the aboriginal "race". Rudd pointed this out. I think the transcript of his later words is worth publishing. I think your and Pearsons demand for "compensation" is a bit rich after you both railed against "handouts". Not also that Pearson and Howard were not present at the speech. Dalek |
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
dalek
at
2008-02-12 07:10 PM
The Nelson speech in reply to Rudd did not go down too well in Federation square or the Great Hall. Basically it was the Pearson line. Editor of The National Indigenous Times Chris Graham writes: Shortly after the chamber emptied, I ran into Valerie, an Aboriginal woman I've known for quite a few years. She was removed as a child, placed as a domestic with a white family, and then repeatedly raped (over several years) by her 'protectors'. His speech, ultimately a homage to the conservatives inside and outside his party, will be remembered for what it was. Dog whistling. That Nelson chose to do so during a national apology occasion is a personal tragedy of epic proportions. I feel genuinely sorry for him. Someone else's fault. For Indigenous Australia, the talk over the next generation will be of a treaty, or a national settlement. Whatever you choose to call it, Australia has an opportunity, not to mention a mood, for change. |
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
kerrb
at
2008-02-12 08:29 PM
dalek:
If you had listened on past the formal bit of the apology you would have heard Rudd specifically target the federal and state Parliaments for passing and sanctioning what he made clear were genocidal laws. There is absolutely no doubt that the intent of these laws was to "breed out" the aboriginal "race". Rudd pointed this outthe marcia langton wording is superior to the Rudd wording because it mentions more than once that the intention for some of the past actions of white australia was to deny the aboriginal cultural legacy - one has to wonder why this was not included in the formal part of the Rudd apology: There are no words that could heal the wounds of those people who were taken from their families by the Commonwealth and other Australian governments with no reason other than to deny them their Aboriginal legacy and hence the future of Aboriginal society. But those people who lived through such crimes against humanity demand an apology. They are right to demand an apology, because there can be no justification for those heinous policies. And so it is incumbent on the Commonwealth to apologise; to say, as the Prime Minister of Australia, on behalf of all Australians: I am sorry. I am sorry that you have suffered. I am sorry that your families have suffered. I am sorry because your suffering has diminished us as citizens of a nation that claims to be a Commonwealth, a government for the well being of all.Those who have departed this life in the several generations affected by these policies are remembered, and as Prime Minister of Australia, on behalf of Australians, say: I offer this apology to their descendants: I am sorry for what happened to your ancestors and that such a terrible burden has befallen you; the denial of your family and cultural legacy is a terrible loss.dalek: I think your and Pearsons demand for "compensation" is a bit rich after you both railed against "handouts"I think you need to read the Pearson article and respond specifically to it rather than just an off the top of your head comment .... who will be able to move on after tomorrow's apology? Most white Australians will be able to move on (with the warm inner glow that will come from having said sorry), but I doubt indigenous Australians will. Those people stolen from their families who feel entitled to compensation will never be able to move on. Is it possible to have been a real victim and yet not be consumed by the politics of victimhood? Dalek glibly points out a contradiction whilst Pearson is gutsy enough to actually try to resolve it.
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
dalek
at
2008-02-12 09:16 PM
Bill I think we can now all agree, the actions of Rudd and his government will be the critical thing. I am not so sure about the "politics of victimhood", I strongly suspect that it may be an uneasy construct. Pearson has been seriously wrong footed by his support for the racist Howard and has to find a way to come back to the centre. It's one thing to demand that genocidal policies of the recent past be recognised it's another to demand the status of victims. Perhaps some empirical evidence of blackfellas calling themselves victims would be good ? Dalek
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
kerrb
at
2008-02-13 03:35 AM
dalek:
Pearson has been seriously wrong footed by his support for the racist Howard and has to find a way to come back to the centreWhat I have noticed is that both Liberal and Labour politicians, federal and state, have drawn on huge chunks of a thorough articulated analysis developed by Pearson - as have various indigenous leaders as well, ie. it is Pearson who is leading the debate with some following his lead and others just refusing to engage in his analysis and just throwing mud (eg. dalek)
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
owenss
at
2008-02-13 01:59 PM
Dalek its more anecdotal than empirical but last night I heard an interview with Archie Roach where he said words to the effect that he knew lots of Aboriginal people who see themselves as victims.
I don't see what the argument here is about. I would see it that any group of people that had experienced a huge insult to their physical existence would develop passivity and self defeating behaviour. Anybody from those communities that decides to "stand up" will have to address self defeating attitudes within that community. |
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
dalek
at
2008-02-13 03:27 PM
Bill, My take on Noel Pearson is that he represents an idealistic return to the paternalism of the mission system. Lots of happy blackfellas working in the mission plantation (enterprise) for real wages, with real jobs and long white smocks. In his vision of course the white missionaries are replaced by corporations run by educated blackfellas and owned by invisible white investors. Order will be maintained by white police, troops and elite "professsionals" - Highly paid teachers for example. From your remarks I guess you share this vision. There is a name for it: Dalek
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
kerrb
at
2008-02-14 12:57 PM
Your take is simple, black and white, dalek - you package up a few elements of Pearson's policies (distorted), combine it with your own black and white jaundiced view of Pearson and end up with another dalek self referential loop.
With reference to missions, by contrast Pearson is nuanced and explores the different sides of the contradictions. For example, his analysis of the role of one particular mission in Cape York:
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
kerrb
at
2008-02-16 08:52 AM
Kevin Rudd (part 1 and 2) and Brendan Nelson's (part 3) televised speeches to Parliament are here. It is correct as dalek pointed out that Rudd does refer to cultural genocide in his later comments but they are omitted from the formal part of the apology.
Brendan Nelson has been criticised for his speech. This might arise from his attempting to explain the historical complexity of the stolen generation, previously described by the Right as the rescued generation. He does deny the need for a compensation fund. Nelson went to some places where Rudd feared to go but which were relevant (eg. Northern Territory intervention, which up until now has been supported by Labour). It is oversimplfying for dalek to say that Nelson was pushing the Pearson line - but that is just dalek's crude black and white view of history. Pearson's analysis is far more complex and nuanced than Nelson's. I think we need a dry eyed thoughtful and historically accurate apology rather than just a wet eyed, feel good cathartic apology. I thought Nelson did a bit better in that respect. Of course that makes him less popular - so what? Tough minded, historically nuanced more or less correct analysis is far more important than popularity. If Rudd is looking for popularity then he certainly won't solve the indigenous issue. Pearson's words about the history are important here: Then there is the historical angle on the apology. The 1997 report by Ronald Wilson and Mick Dodson is not a rigorous history of the removal of Aboriginal children and the breaking up of families. It is a report advocating justice. But it does not represent a defensible history. And, given its shortcomings as a work of history, the report was open to the conservative critique that followed. Indigenous activists' decision to adopt historian Peter Read's nomenclature, the Stolen Generations, inspired Quadrant magazine's riposte: the rescued generations.
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
dalek
at
2008-02-17 04:25 PM
Bill, Rudd made it clear that he apologised for the racist and genocidal intent of the laws under which the children were stolen. The fact that there were unintended consequences of these acts (some good) is irrelevant. The public support for the Rudd apology was unexpectedly immense, so suddenly Nelson was faced with a dilemma ; oppose the apology and go down in infamy or find a way to support the apology and placate his extremist racist party faction. Nelson on the other hand could not make a clean speech in support as he owes his position as deputy leader to the extreme right wing of the Liberal party. (This faction demanded that he repudiate the support for an apology position of Turnbull as the price of support). Nelson's speech was at the least, churlish and descended into irrelevancies and snide asides. Pearson now has a real problem. His support for Howard and the howard extremists and his gratuitous denigration of Rudd prior to the election has left him outside the tent shouting about "compensation" and appearing for all the world like just another spurned rent seeker. The fact that he completely failed to see the Rudd express coming down the rail is proof of his political ineptitude. The program of housing improvement is in my view the most effective thing that could be done to rescue the children from abuse. Where you have a wide-spread situation where 20+ people are living in a 2 bedroom house or worse; you have a recipe for disaster. Combine this with the reinstitution of CDEP and a serious extra-CDEP program of job and industry creation and you will see some improvement. I am appalled by the hypocrisy of those who condemn CDEP for Blackfellas and then suck mightily on the public tit themselves. Dalek
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
kerrb
at
2008-02-17 07:25 PM
dalek:
Pearson now has a real problem. His support for Howard and the howard extremists and his gratuitous denigration of Rudd prior to the election has left him outside the tent shouting about "compensation" and appearing for all the world like just another spurned rent seeker. The fact that he completely failed to see the Rudd express coming down the rail is proof of his political ineptitude. Some people stand out from the crowd (Pearson), whilst others are content to remain inside Kevin Rudd's tent - that's where dalek puts himself. Pearson's disagreement with Rudd before the election was principled and their disagreements go back some way - based on Rudd's reluctance to help indigenous people when he was a Queensland state based politician. See this post for an outline of some of the real differences between Rudd and Pearson - an analysis of how "self regarding" and "other regarding" applies to the Australian indigenous situation.
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
dalek
at
2008-02-17 10:29 PM
Oh no Bill, Inside Rudds tent is where you would like me to be. Rudd is basically just another social democratic opportunist but he is doing the right thing (more or less) at the moment, in my view. (Conditional unity and all that). The thing you may not know is that Pearson and Rudd have a history going back to the Goss government days in Queensland when they had a serious falling out. Pearson has made a good job of covering his support for the Howard racists by his Post Modern blather about "other and self" regard etc. Unfortunately you seem to have fallen for it. Pearson has recently characterised Rudd as a"heartless snake" and raved about the disaster that will befall "his people" if Howard was to be defeated. This is not the talk of a professional and principled fighter for Blackfellas- it is the talk of an opportunist who saw a threat to his position in the right wing take-over of the "Aboriginal industry" that was fronted by Brough and Howard. Dalek |
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
kerrb
at
2008-02-18 12:57 AM
dalek:
Oh no Bill, Inside Rudds tent is where you would like me to be. Rudd is basically just another social democratic opportunist but he is doing the right thing (more or less) at the moment, in my view. (Conditional unity and all that). The thing you may not know is that Pearson and Rudd have a history going back to the Goss government days in Queensland when they had a serious falling out. Pity that in the rush to post you couldn't be bothered reading my link - which was about the falling out between Pearson and Rudd. When you have worked out how you differ from social democratic opportunists then let us all know. I agree with David Burchell: Fuzzy feelings won't save anyone As any student of the history of Christianity knows, conscience, guilt, atonement and forgiveness can be double-edged emotional swords. The person who gives also receives. Bestowing an apology on another can cause us a perverse kind of pleasure: the pleasure of feeling better about ourselves as apologisers.Can Kevin Rudd make a tough decison, one that might make him unpopular? I doubt it. Can the problems of indigenous Australia be solved without tough decisions? Most definitely not.
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
dalek
at
2008-02-18 03:12 PM
Bill. your depth of research astounds me "based on Rudd's reluctance to help indigenous people when he was a Queensland state based politician". Rudd never was a "Queensland state based politician". He was the minder for Goss so he certainly worked for a "Queensland state based politician". Not exactly the same thing. Now you should cite an instance from this time where Rudd was "reluctant to help indigenous people". Like I said Rudd and Pearson have history, they hate each other. Now watch Pearson come crawling back into the tent, he has no option, his dream of becoming the first black missionary to his people has been shattered because he chose the wrong conservative patron. Dalek |
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
kerrb
at
2008-02-18 05:29 PM
Yes, this is relevant to this thread, the history of disagreement between Rudd and Pearson. Here is Pearson's account of it:
My first official job was on a task‐force appointed by Queensland Premier Wayne Goss in 1991 – led by his wunderkind head of the cabinet office, Kevin Rudd – to develop Aboriginal land rights legislation. In opposition since time immemorial, the fledgling Labor government dreaded its commitment to introduce land rights legislation in the most conservative of states. In dramatic circumstances, at a national conference hosted by Premier Goss as part of Justice Tony Fitzgerald’s Fraser Island Inquiry, the Premier announced the government’s intention to develop land rights legislation. I was there with a delegation of Cape York elders and colleagues; I had begun my own trajectory in pursuit of land rights for the people of Cape York Peninsula by forming the Cape York Land Council the year before.
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
dalek
at
2008-02-18 08:14 PM
Bill, it is clear from recent events (the apology) that there has been a major advance in public support for Black fellas. In 1993 it was a different country. Pearson had played a role in advancing public opinion as have many other Aboriginal activists and spokespeople. A mass movement based upon Aboriginal rights etc has grown up since then. Like many mass movements it has made errors in strategy etc. Rudd took no risks at all in making his apology, he managed to read the public mood. By contrast 9% Nelson, was totally discredited and Pearson and Yourself were left bleating about compensation. Pearsons rhetoric has been overtaken by events, he totally failed to see that Howard was fucked and that his 19th century rights and responsibilities program is about to be seriously modified. I doubt if the new dispensation will permit the workhouses and plantations that are implicit in the post modern -return to the 19th century - blather that comes from Pearson. That's the realpolitic. It is clear that the Australian public is of a mood to support a program that avoids this retrogressive punisher philosophy. If you doubt my words think deeply on Pearsons (and your) support for the abolish ion of the CDEP for Aboriginal People and his and your failure to condemn the CDEP programs (by another name) that support white workers in the Automobile and other industries. Not counting of course the CDEP programs that support teachers, doctors and public servants. Why did you single the Blackfellas out for special treatment ? Perhaps you should confront your own racism? Dalek |
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• Re: saying sorry
Posted by
kerrb
at
2008-02-18 10:24 PM
I suppose confronting ones own racism might be relevant to this thread as well. Once again I think that Pearson has a superior analysis here:
Today, whilst leading conservatives and liberals (notably former Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser) are avowed opponents of racism, the polarity between those who consider racism a serious problem and those who do not is generally seen as a left–right split. As progressive people predominately come from left of the cultural and political divide, the ALP (and the progressive minor parties) are generally regarded as opponents of racism, whilst the Liberal and National Parties are considered racist – or at least indifferent to racism. Individuals from both sides often contradict this generalisation. He then goes onto discuss attitudes to race from an indigenous perspective in more detail. What I like about Pearson's position is that he gives me a lot more guidance about what to do rather than only feeling sorry and setting some targets (which is all that Rudd has done) . There is a fairly comprehensive analysis about practical solutions combined with an incisive analysis about race and disadvantage.
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