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Swamping Around
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Swamping Around
Posted by
youngmarxist
at
2006-01-28 01:19 AM
Here's a discussion from the progressive think tank. This person is not
worth debating in himself, because he is a conspiracy freak. But I
think its useful for other people to see there is a view that is not
weighed down with pessimism and hate.
response: I can't begin to say how damaging I think this post (see below) is to the morale
and vision of progressive people. You are entitled to your opinion, but
I beg you to think of the effects of what you say on a young activist.
If the world is full of all-powerful evil monsters, why should anyone
bother to struggle? Even if I agreed with your general line of
thinking, I would keep quiet, because a) I wouldn't want to give
nightmares to recruits and b) maybe my predictions of doom would be
wrong.
__________________________________
original post:
> Just to tune you in to where I am at right now - i.e. pretty depressed
> at the way things are going at the moment.
>
> Considering there are several theories regarding the whereabouts of
> Osama bin Laden ranging from: he died last year after succumbing to
> illness, or, even before that, died as a result of the intensive
> bombing of anything that moves in Afghanistan, or he is hiding in the
> one place the US Colossus can't (or don't want to) find him, namely, in
> Iran, it is slightly suspicious don't you think that he has issued
> another 'message' a few days ago, which an Arab academic on the Lehrer
> Newshour yesterday described as rather 'unusual in its language'. This
> particular academic is "Mamoun Fandy, he's a senior fellow specializing
> in Middle East politics at Rice University's Baker Institute."
>
> Now there's a couple of sus names for an establishment - Rice and
> Baker! - which could be just coincidental, but anyway... One of the
> things he mentioned about this tape, which the CIA has verified as
> being 'authentic' was that: "...this particular tape is not terribly
> inspiring, just looking at the language of it. This is the first tape
> of bin Laden that has no single verse from the Koran. It does not have
> the flowery language of Arabic.
> It seems to me that it is written in English first, and then translated
> into Arabic. It is very western style of tape. It is not very
> characteristic of bin Laden, at least it tells me that the non-Arabic
> speaking within the al-Qaida network are taking over the organization
> --"
>
> Call me suspicious but that says to me that it was probably written by
> one of the Evil Empire's own - i.e. someone in the CIA/Mossad/MI6
> Zionist Mafia, to soften us up to the imminent 'false flag' event in
> the same vein as 911, due at any time now, to justify the nuking of
> Iran.
____________ response: Ok, here we dive into completely unsupported assertions that simply are _not_ the most likely explanation.
First of all, you are entitled to your opinion on Fandy's comments. It
is interesting to note that Fandy, who you quote to support your
statement, does NOT agree with your opinion that the people who wrote
the script for the 'bin Laden' tape were agents of Western
spymasters. He thinks that are in the al-Quaeda movement itself.
This is not proof, but since you quote Fandy to support your opinions,
it would be honest to point out that he does not agree with them.
As far as bin Laden's location goes, there is another theory that you
do not mention, which is that he is in the mountainous border areas
between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Well those are the details. But then you talk about your idea that 9-11
was an inside job. More to the point, you advance your opinion that
9-11 was an inside job as though it were an accepted fact, instead of a
highly controversial idea that has no real evidence to back it up.
And then you go on to imply that the Bush Administration has a plan to
nuke Iran. I am of a completely different opinion. I believe that
no-one at all in the Bush Administration, or at policy-making or
policy-advising level in the US Government, is planning to use a
nuclear weapon on Iran. Further, I believe that anyone who advocated
such a course would be removed from any position of power and
responsibility for deciding the US military posture. 'Promotion' to
Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency would be a good
way to thus destroy someone's career.
The very most that the current administration will do to Iran is impose economic sanctions.
The 2008 election will decide if the Republican Presidential candidacy
will remain with the neocon-employing faction of the Party, who may
later choose to invade, or the old-skool 'realpolitik - business as
usual' cynics like Powell, who would regard an invasion if Iran as
madness.
Even if the 'radical interventionists' remain in control of the
Presidency, they will never nuke Iran. They might invade, but Iraq has
already stretched the US Imperium. Not to its limits, but it has
certainly been stretched.
A more likely level of intervention would be funnelling guns to
democratic forces in Iran, so they can resist the priestly
dictatorship.
_________________________
original post: >Entire Interview with Fandy and Paul Pillar, former CIA Official is
> well worth a read at:
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/jan-june06/osama_1-19.html
>
> Considering Richard Bellfield's book: "Terminate With Extreme
> Prejudice"—An Expose Of The Assassination Game, Its Killers And Their
> Paymasters, William Blum's book: "Rogue State", the revelations about
> Monsanto and their pollution of the world's food supply by their GE
> crops, Michael Baker's recent postings about the pervasive manipulation
> of the media by the ultra-right and the perfidy of the lavishly funded
> US PR companies, whose job it is to lie and deceive the people about
> the motives of people like us who are trying, in vain, to enlighten
> people about these tyrannies - I'm fed up!
________ Response: News Flash! The ruling class are evil! People Shocked!
People of good will, who 'dreamed of a society of free and equal human
beings' (a paraphrase of Orwell) have ALWAYS been faced with greedy,
granite-faced, brutal rulers. The difference nowadays is that those
very rulers have been forced - by their fear of what would happen if
they didn't - to allow the working people of the Western world a golden
age of prosperity.
We live better than anyone has ever lived in recorded history. Diseases
that kings and emperors used to fear have been crushed by modern
medicine. Good houses, plentiful food, ample lesiure time, multiple
sources of information and the right to self-realisation make this
world the richest and most fulfilling it has ever been. I am one of the
luckiest people EVER to live here and now. And the billions of people
who do not get to share in this wealth KNOW that we have it. They want
it. And in the next few hundred years, I predict that the ruling class
will be forced to let them have it.
The road is hard, long, and full of twists and turns. But we are in a
position to help the people of the world claim the decent life they
want and being unhappy about the fact that the ruling class is evil
just makes things harder.
___________________________
original post:
> The all-powerful and evil men in Washington, the neocons, who are at
> war on every front against the rest of the world's people, have so far
> shown themselves to be pretty invincible; one of their admitted ploys
> is to bring about a situation where no matter what scandals emerge and
> even if the truth is revealed about their mendacity - it makes no
> difference to their hold on power. As with 911, their philosophy is
> that: if they do something outrageous enough, nobody will believe that
> they did it. So while ever people believe that Osama bin Laden was
> responsible for 911 we know that they are succeeding and remain
> invincible.
Response: Once again, I disagree. I can't prove I am right, and nor can you. But
I choose to believe that it was actually Islamist fascisist from Saudi
Arabia who flew the planes on 9-11. They are our enemies, they would
line you and me both up against a wall and shoot us if they could.
There are differences in degrees of evil, and Islamists are a more
dangerous enemy to the world than American imperialists.
___________________________
Original post: > On the home front, the exporting of the West Papuan refugees to
> Christmas Island (about 350km from Djakarta and 3500km from Canberra)
> heralds another sickening illustration of the ongoing subordination of
> the Howard Government to the fascist military regime of Indonesia. No
> doubt we are about to have to endure Howard and Downer and co. being
> grovelling apologists yet again for the bloody TNI and Kopassus,
> trained just up the road at Canungra, to perpetrate genocide against
> the innocent indigenous people of Papua.
Response: This is a vicious and criminal act against these people. What should we
do to raise awareness and support for the West Papuan people in
Australia? Intervention in East Timor finally happened when Australian
s said 'NO MORE!'. Maybe that can happen again.
_______ original post:
> So I am beginning to think that we, the few of us who take the time and
> trouble to rage on about these hideous events, are wasting our time -
> why are we bothering when it clearly makes no difference? Consequently,
> I am seriously thinking of dropping out of the scene and just watching,
> admittedly with some melancholia, the world go down the gurgler - I
> think perhaps it might be the best thing in the end to let the
> above-mentioned evil men to do their damnedest and wreck the world
> completely, environmentally, economically, socially and militarily -
> only then might enough of the perpetrators - the guilty, become
> victims, suffer and die, instead of only the millions of innocent
> victims who are dying already. In other words, why not give them enough
> rope and let them hang themselves, because, lets face it, it can't get
> much worse than it is now for the innocent victims.
response: A thousand times, NO! I will not let this marvellous society disappear
without the greatest of struggles to save it. I cannot say how angry
you make me when you call vengeance down upon the heads of the
innocent. This world can get a lot worse, and even the people who are
suffering now will be worse off if the vision of a wealthy and free
world is no longer there to inspire them. What you suggest would be the
worst possible thing that could happen to the world.
original post:
> PS. If only 4 people turn up for next Saturday's meeting, and only a
> similar number continue to post and, presumably, read the messages, I
> assume that the other 35 members of the PPT agree with me. So why
> bother, fuck it, bring it on!
response:
People will engage when they can, when the pressure of their own lives
is not too high. You have no valid reason to assume that they hold your
opinion on this issue.
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Re: Swamping Around
Posted by
arthur
at
2006-01-28 06:17 AM
Strikes me that the whole point of this guy's rave is contained in the conclusion: So I am beginning to think that we, the few of us who take the time and trouble to rage on about these hideous events, are wasting our time - why are we bothering when it clearly makes no difference? Consequently, I am seriously thinking of dropping out of the scene and just watching, admittedly with some melancholia, the world go down the gurgler..
The "scene" he is in is all about "to rage on about these hideous events". Why do they bother with paranoid drivel "when it so clearly makes no difference"? Precisely because they are into "just watching... with some melancholia".
Now if I was a conspiracy theorist I would say that since that is obviously what any ruling class would want its opponents to do it is likely that he is an agent consciously promoting their interests.
However as a marxist, I am more inclined to the view that he internalizes the dominant idea of the dominant class for exactly the same reason that other slaves celebrate their slavishness.
Besides - the paid agents do it with much more sophistication in mainstream publications like "The Guardian" and the BBC or their local equivalents, "The Age" and the ABC 
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